AIBU to think the UK should have a National Food Service again? (Like we basically had in WW2)

[Staybymw]

During WW2 and for years after, the UK did have a kind of National Food Service.
The government controlled prices, ran bakeries, managed rationing, guaranteed flour/milk supplies, and kept basic staples affordable so people didn’t starve. It wasn’t fancy, but it worked.

So with the cost of living crisis now, rising food prices, food banks everywhere, and benefits going up because families literally can’t afford groceries… why don’t we bring back a modern version?

I’m not talking about anything complicated.
I mean basic, no-frills staples produced not for profit:

• bread
• rice
• pasta
• tinned tomatoes
• flour
• oats
• basic cooking oil
• tinned veg / beans

All stuff we can grow or easily manufacture in the UK.

If the government owned the land, the factories, and the distribution, they could:

• create thousands of jobs ( more people paying tax)
• stabilise food prices
• make sure no one goes hungry
• massively reduce the need for benefits to keep rising
• put pressure on supermarkets to stop hiking prices

Other countries already do versions of this:

France controls wheat prices
Japan buys rice from farmers and sells it back at stable prices
Egypt subsidises bread for millions
India has state-run ration shops
Brazil provides government food baskets
Saudi Arabia subsidises milk, flour, staples through state industry

It’s not a wild idea lots of countries see food as a strategic, essential service.

A National Food Service would mean:

• no shareholders to pay
• no profit margin
• steady UK jobs
• cheaper food
• more secure supply chains
• less reliance on private companies
• more tax revenue from the workers it employs

It could help families massively.
Especially those who are working but still struggling, or whose benefits are swallowed by food prices.

Given everything going on, food inflation, child poverty, constant arguments about increasing benefits, would a simple, not-for-profit national food range actually save money in the long run?

I think it would be an ineffective system. Where are these items going to be distributed and by who? You'd need to have warehouse and staff and also pay people to run the admin side of things, keep track of who's had how much food etc. I don't see how it's going to be any cheaper than what you can buy already in the shops. I doubt any Government would plan well enough that there wouldn't be supply issues down the road (which they/their cronies later cash in on, like they did with the PPE shortage).

I think a food stamps scheme for those who need it could be useful. I'm not sure how necessary that would be though. There seems to be a lot of local food banks in my area that you can visit without needing a referral. If people are happy to volunteer and donate items for free, then that is always going to be better than increasing taxes to pay for a food service scheme and pushing more people into the 'needing help' bracket.

there is a difference between exploitation and paying an extra 29% of wage for government pension. There is a minimum wage in this country so I’d be interested to know how people are exploited to produce these good stuffs (it’s not sugar / sugar palm/ cocoa/ tea which can have dubious international supply chain)

YABVU.

There are many reasons why not:

We don't grow tomatoes and rice in this country - they come from Europe and so since Brexit you can expect to pay higher prices.

Prior to Brexit we had market intervention in the form of the Common Agricultural Policy. We had cheap subsidised British and European food until Brexit and our Government took away the farmer's subsidies!

It's been done and abandoned as a disaster - I assume you are not old enough to remember the Milk Marketing Board (set up in 1930s and abolished in 1994). Prices actually reduced when it was scrapped as supermarkets bought foreign milk for less.

Wheat (bread and pasta) and other commodity prices (pork, sugar, coffee, etc) are set on a world market and change constantly depending on global events and weather - there is no way an elected Government is going to intervene in a free market.

Farmers are currently struggling to make any profit at all and you want to reduce prices further - that is very unreasonable! Staple food in this country is very cheap, often imported below the cost of UK production (New Zealand lamb for example).

You mention nationalisation of agriculture and the food industry. I suggest you do a study of how that went in communist Russia! To cut a long story short, it was a disaster and caused widespread food shortages and famine! Communism never works and this has been proved time and time again around the world - we really should teach this basic stuff at school! Free enterprise and competition is the proven best route to lower prices.

We don't grow enough food in this country to support our population so rely on imported products over which we have no control. As more and more farmland is taken out of production (building on green fields, solar farms, re-wilding and environmental schemes, tree planting for carbon credits, etc) we can expect more imported food and lower standards of production. The farmers are angry about the IHT rules as this is going to make the situation much worse than it is currently.

If you want the Governmsnt to get involved in food supply, national restaurants or subsidies to employers and schools to offer cheap, healthy meals at lunch time to employees and pupils is probably a better way forward.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-cost-of-a-healthy-diet-around-the-world/

I agree with others that UK food costs are relatively low compared to income

Europe already has one of the lowest global healthy diet costs and a relatively low percentage of people who can't afford it.

The population of Europe is approximately 745 million (& 39 million = 5% can't afford a healthy diet)
By comparison the population of Northern Africa is projected to be around 276 million * *(&112 million = 40% can't afford a healthy diet)

the Chinese communist party has actually lifted 800 million people out of poverty over four decades.

by the way, what are you talking about with your net zero comment? Are you a climate change skeptic?

Loads of really good information in here, but politely, as I’ve just commented on another post, the Chinese communist party has actually lifted 800 million people out of poverty, when you say communism never works how do you square this?

My question something different. Name one area where the government has done a better and cheaper job of delivering something.

Chinese economy is not communist. It is state capitalism.

Communism has never lifted anyone out of anything. It lifts people down though, six feet below ground.

Thats why no one ever tries to break into Cuba or North Korea. Whereas people from these countries are literally dying to get into the US and South Korea.

I was responding to the PP pointing out that our food prices are kept down by farmers working for what equates to below NMW and the use of migrant workers.

Food is so cheap here. The staple products you have listed are some of the cheapest and the prices are relatively stable. A few pence off a tin of beans or tinned tomatoes will make very little difference to anyone. House and rent prices are the issue.

What might work (and I haven't spent much time thinking it through) is for the government to open a series of canteens where people could be provided with good quality, nutritionally complete meals at a subsidised price.

Healthcare. The UK NHS is a lot cheaper than likes of the US where it's near all private.

And as I mentioned in my post, rail. Specifically rail infrastructure ( in the UK anyway)

Pretty much every nation has a mixed economy. It's just the ratio of private to state owned that varies.

I don't think there is a country anywhere that operates a 100% capitalist system.

As a really strange example of the UKs weird hybrid system, how about Sizewell C power station. A mix between the UK government and French company EDF. EDF is state owned by the French guv, But in this case it's acting more like a private company. It will be making a profit from the UK consumer.

Sizewell C Nuclear Power Station, England, UK (power-technology.com)

In my simple way of thinking, I reckon it would be better if such projects were just done 100% UK state owned.

Sorry for the somewhat gish galloping reply,

What about disabled people and those with food allergies and intolerances? How would you level up the scheme for them?

Paying migrant workers less than minimum wage and using them without the correct visas is illegal.

self employed people can chose to work for less than min wage. That isn’t exploitation

No way. Canteen style catering doesn’t even work at a profit model due to minimum wage etc. I’ve now worked on 3 contracts shutting down catering facilities on sites (one large company, one university, one government arm) because they are too expensive to subsidise and can’t work without subsidy.

Oh yes, I’ve always fancied living in North Korea so this could be a sort of halfway house.

Wow! What a wet dream for Labour backbenchers.

I'd rather live in a free country.

I think it’s such a weird middle aged woman thing to be obsessed with other people not eating well enough.

Is it too much generational orthorexia? Being raised on a diet of super fat v super skinny, fat families, and Gillian Mckeith??

It’s a bit sinister really, this obsession with other people’s diets and their level of cooking ability.

Its illegal but it happens nonetheless. I think its something of an oversimplification to call a farmer a self employed person who can choose to work for less than NNW.
My wider point is that it seems rather obvious that if we remove the need to make the billions in profit for non producers from an industry, then there is more money to pay the producers properly so farmers don't have to work for less than NMW, illegal workers won't be employed, and it may even be cheaper for the end consumer. As I said, the figures would need to be modelled.

I'd rather the government enabled and encouraged households to be more food-independent, such as encouraging poultry-keeping by allowing households to feed them kitchen scraps, and running campaigns to educate people about growing food, preserving food and, most of all, not wasting food.

I love the “figures will need to be modelled” as if that’s ever going to happen 😂

as mentioned numerous times these products don’t produce billions in profits for none producers. They are loss leaders or return tiny margins. Supermarkets can offer basics at such a low price because every margin is squeezed including their own (they’re not making profit on milk!)

you could argue they should simply be more expensive but that’s an entirely different solution to a national food service supplying basics

I think what the OP is asking is not really a million miles away from what the UK already has.

The taxpayer subsidises farmers.

An update on the Sustainable Farming Incentive – Farming (blog.gov.uk)

5 billion over 2 years. Quote " The largest of these schemes, the Sustainable Farming Incentive (SFI) now has more than 37,000 multi-year live agreements and is not only delivering sustainable food production and nature’s recovery for today and the years ahead, but it is also putting money back into farmers’ pockets. "

Food security is a pretty big thing. Especially with the EU, as we can all recall.

So while the UK government do not own and operate any farms directly, food production is supported. We can argue the policy details etc, but I think it is fair to say that without this support, staple prices would be higher.

For anyone yelling COMMUNISM, I say think back to the likes of the milk marketing board.

How much subsidising to people need? Benefits, on top of benefits on top of benefits.

How about just teaching people to stand on their own two feet?

We are loosing the ability to grow our own food, farms closing daily and no onebis making new land! When it's gone it's gone.

In WW2 we had a much smaller population, way more land, food rationing and food was grown on almost every available scrap if land. It would never work again.