To be seriously concerned about sending DS to nursery given news today?

[SharpPinkDuck]

I have a 14 month old DS and had been planning for him to start nursery 3 days per week in London in January as I have a new part time job which I’d been really looking forward to.

However having read the horrific, disgusting news today about the nursery worker in London who SA’d the babies and children I feel incredibly anxious and unsure that I should be sending him. I don’t feel at all comfortable with the idea of any male coming into contact with him in a nursery setting, I don’t care if that’s an outdated attitude, I am not willing to risk it and clearly there is a risk. My nursery had no men while I looked around and we liked the setting and the staff.

Does anyone have any advice? I cannot believe the world is this way, that I can’t send my child to nursery costing a fortune for fear of him being sexually assaulted or worse.

Most fathers have access to pre verbal children.
🙄

And I would have no issues with any registered child minder.

That’s because there is a very little amount of male nursery workers, as they increase so will CSA. That is what the statistics indicate unfortunately. This whole ‘not all men’ is rubbish because unfortunately with CSA it is always men. Nurseries are the perfect setting for them to commit this sort of offence. Children aren’t often verbal, they have access to them in an intimate and vulnerable manner that you would not in a hospital or school.

Frankly find it astonishing that mumsneters are more concerned about offending males than adequately protecting children.

There was a thread on here about a mum finding out she lived next to a convicted pedo and the amount of people telling her she was overreacting and that he was harmless to her children was sickening.

Yes, although you have presumably chosen the father of your children very carefully and trust them a lot?

That's fair enough. But I think most women would be wary. In the same way, I wouldn't want to find myself alone in a dark alley way with a strange man at night. I obviously would not care if I was there with my brother, or dad 🤷

I will never apologise for being wary of men. Like it not, men are statistically a threat to women. If 50% of nursery workers were male, CSA would increase significantly in nursery settings. I am glad there is societal wariness about men working with young children, as it frankly keeps our children safer.

OP, I know how you're feeling. My daughter has been settling into a wonderful nursery all week and is due to start properly from next week. We did wait until she was communicative but it's still a worry.

I try to think pragmatically but the very sad statistic in my life is that in my primary school there was a paedophile (male) and three male teachers in my secondary school were fired for improper conduct/having relationships with girls. I grew up in West London and went to schools in a good area... I was also 10 when I encountered SA on my walk to school just outside the school. As parents, mine were always fairly strict and protective and I was actually ferried to and from school by parents and it was really the off chance I was walking alone that it happened.

I am such a worrier when it comes to these things. I try and be pragmatic but knowing the above I can't help but worry. Like other PPs have said, what should we do? To what end do you avoid these settings. Become a SAHM? Home school? I completely empathise with you OP, but I have no good advice.

I think it’s infinitely more likely that these sort of predators seek out jobs/volunteer positions where they have easy access to children.

Not that I am advocating for just anyone to do child care. But when people are happy to pay much more for a painter than a child carer, you will get the least skilled/educated people in society doing it because they can’t get anything else (and of course I don’t mean all nursery carers are in this category).

My son is now 18 and went to nursery he was never fully happy and I went part time, if I had to do it now I wouldn’t , I’d find a way not to work as I just don’t trust it anymore.

It happened years ago with a female worker so isn’t exclusively men although I’d say I’ve never personally come across a male nursery worker. I’ve also never come across a nursery where one member of staff would be alone for any extended period with a child. They’re always really hectic busy places ime with staff and kids dashing around constantly. It baffles me as a result that things like this could happen.

I felt safe sending my DC to nursery because the women there were mums and the manager had her own child in the nursery. I think the risk of anything as horrific as this is exceptionally low. They’re all DBS checked and should be trained to work with kids too. It’s a lot of effort for a paedo to go to, they have other ways and means.

@dollyblue01 What do you do if you have a mortgage to pay and the women is the higher earner? Sell up? Or trust the nursery?

You couldn’t be more wrong on every account.

Women do not commit CSA at a rate that men do. It’s statistically just not true. If you’re talking about violence and physical abuse that’s a different topic however men commit CSA at an alarming rate compared to women.

This the 6th or 7th case of CSA from a male nursery worker in the U.K. where male nursery workers are very rare, what does that tell you?

Every time one of them is caught they’re charged with multiple offences meaning they’ve managed to get away with it multiple times before anyone has even noticed. In Thomas Waller’s case a child told their parent and that’s how he was uncovered so no idea where the rest of the staff were.

DBS and vetting are pointless as many do not have prior convictions.

Lastly, they’re predators by nature so they would absolutely jump through the hoops which I may add there really aren’t many of to be a nursery worker to have access to children.

I think it's awful that all male nursery workers would be mistrusted like this. My friend's son works with kids. He is adopted and wants to go into social work but this is his way in. He is wonderful with the kids and just a really, loving gentle guy, who is only 20. I'm so sad that people would look at him and mistrust him just because he's male.

I completely agree. It is mostly men.

Yes, it's sad and sucks for decent guys.

But the sheer scale of male violence against women and children is so huge, the solution isn't to pretend it doesn't exist so as to spare the feelings of men

Men really need make themselves aware of the scale of the problem and ask themselves what they're doing to make a difference, not centre their own ego and their own feelings. That's not being a decent man.

When OP's DS is older he too will be viewed as a possible threat

Be careful not to fall into misogynistic traps.

See the 10th rule of misogyny - "the worst thing about male violence is it makes men look bad".

Ask yourself why you're only centering a man's feelings and not considering the women and children affected by sex crimes committed by men alongside his feelings?

I'm not having a go by the way - it's easy to fall into these traps as we are all influenced by living in a misogynist society - and it's likely you care about your friend's son.

But the next time you find yourself saying "but what about the men"? in this kind of discussion, it can be enlightening to stop and ask yourself - "but what about the children?" and "but what about the women?"

It is horrifying but it is incredibly rare. unfortunately it's far more common for kids to be abused by family members or people known to them. I actually feel nursery is safer than child minders, as you don't know who could be in the house.

And your point is?

97% of nursery workers are female and you can think of 1 woman almost 2 decades ago.
3% of nursery workers are male and there have been at least 5 men convicted in the last 2 years.

Not really comparable is it?

This. So tired of the oh please think of the poor men.

Centering men, at all costs.

You do realise that all men are someone's son or perhaps sibling.

I don't know those men. Why would I trust them?

I won't reply anymore, because it's pointless. As I said, the day men rape and abuse less is the day I will put more trust in men.

That's entirely fair enough. I'm really sorry to hear that and I'd have felt uncomfortable too. My childminder's husband was a carpenter so wasn't ever in the house. I really hope you can find a solution that works for your family. Wishing you all the best.

Just in response to those questioning why I was recommending a childminder:

-nowhere did I say they are the automatically 'safer' option. Mine was OFSTED registered, had 20 years experience, had spotless references from many, many families, my daughter thrived there for 3 years and used to beg us to go there even at the weekends! She would run to her every morning and has made incredibly close friends there. She was one of 4 or max 5 kids. (not 1:1). There was no husband present. Most days they'd be out in public places, library, playground, twice a week at playgroup etc and then only around 2/3 hours would be spent in the home. So actually there often were several other adults around. Even her home had a purpose-built separate cabin she used for childminding.

• we'd have daily photos, updates, she would respond to messages when necessary, provide educational activities (daughter thriving in Reception because they'd had so much practice of phonics, shapes etc)
• I am only sharing my own personal experience, as others are sharing theirs. FWIW, it's worth adding that in the year before my daughter started school we felt we 'should' try nursery alongside the childminder to get her used to larger class size. If it was a night before a nursery day, my daughter would absolutely sob and beg us not to go/to send her to childminder instead. Several times she'd come home from said nursery saying she'd been grabbed by staff members and I heard them raising voices at 3 year olds. I pulled her out of course. Having said all of that, I wouldn't dream of saying all childminders are like my daughter's and all nurseries like the one she attended. That's just my experience.

Hope that clarifies for those who queried! I've been working with children myself for 13 years and as parents we know what's best for our own kids.

I don't care how this sounds, but both this guy and the young lad from the other week just look like 'wronguns'.
Whatever qualifications they may have, if they came to me for an interview I wouldn't be hiring them.
I don't understand how the nursery manager thought they would be a good hire.

Update- Unfortunately my nursery has hired a male deputy manager and I’ve decided to pull my son out. I am going to look for a nanny that we have chosen, unfortunately this and a number of other reasons made me feel uncomfortable with my son going at this point in time, I feel he’s too young and it’s not right for our family.

good luck to anyone else going through this process.