Ban men from working in nursery settings

[Aliceisagooddog]

After yet another paedophile has been found guilty of awful crimes whilst working at a nursery, surely we need to rethink this. The risks are just too great.

I’m refer to anything that’s set up as single sex, be that toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, mammograms, prisons, refuges. Many if not all of these lump all men together as a potential threat, hence their exclusion.

Do you think that’s a bad thing? That NAMALT and so if a man wants to use a female designated service or space he should be allowed to?

There was a suggestion recently that men be allowed to do mammograms. I had a good old chat with the woman doing by mammogram about this and her main question was “what kind of man wants this job, handling women’s breasts and getting up close and personal with them while doing so?”.

Good question.

(Regarding schools, I think that single sex schools for children, especially at secondary, are a good thing, and I’m not sure at the moment if I think it would be better or not for that to extend to staff).

So if the risk is too great, statistically what is the risk? I understand people’s views on it and people have the choice to do whatever they want .

My daughters nursery was run by a man. He had just finished his degree and it was a small village pre school. I don't think all men are pedos

No, they aren’t. But I can assure you that all the pedoes out there are a) much more likely to be men and b) are rubbing their hands in glee at all the useful idiots ushering them into places where they can access their victims easily. There’s probably one reading your post right now.

Ah ok, as this was a discussion around nurseries and schools, i thought that was what you were referring to.

No I don't think a man should be allowed in a female designated space. Mainly due to dignity/privacy. I don't think most men are a threat to me, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with them watching me change in a communal changing room for example.

I get frustrated with women bringing their 9+ years old sons into a female changing room when my 10 year old daughter feels uncomfortable changing with them around now she is developing. At schools single sex changing is required for year 3/4 upwards, so 7+ years old. The pool states boys 8+ shouod go into male or shared changing spaces. However these mums state it's unsafe for their son to go into the men's changing room on their own - interested in your perspective on this - is the mums need to stop her older son being with men without a parent present higher or lower in priority to my daughters right to a single sex changing space? There is also the option of a shared sex changing space which a mum could go into with her son (so not on own with men), or a Dad with his daughter, but they chose to bring their older son into female space still due to men changing in that space. So it's not even really about risk as they can be with them in there, but the mums aren't comfortable changing themselves in a space with men changing but expect older girls to be ok with changing in a space with older boys

However nurseries are not designated a single sex space, so people cannot insist on it.

And yes women should be able to request a female for a mammogram, there should be a way to do this in advance. However, I had no issue with having a male midwife or a male obstetrician - objecting to the male obstetrician doing a forceps delivery would have put my babies life at risk.

I'm not so sure I prefer single sex schools, I got a scholarship to a top private school girls only which I declined in favour of a Co ed state school.
However my daughter wants to go to a girls only grammar for secondary, and this is fine with me too, it's her choice.

It would be sexist if women sexually abused children at the same level that men do, however, this is absolutely not the case based on official data from the court system. 98% of sexual offences are carried out by men not women and 88% of victims are female and 40% are children.

The 2% of sexual crimes that are carried out by women are often cases where the women involved is in a relationship with a male pedophile who is encouraging this behaviour.

Also, pedophiles actively seek employment that gives them access to children.
This is predatory behaviour - they hunt vulnerable children.

Calling women "sexist" for wanting to protect babies and children from a significant minority of men's predatory behaviour is utterly vacuous.

You haven't got a leg to stand on.

Ban women from football pitches

Alice is a good dog ....woman can be pedophiles as well

@Bushmillsbabe I think it was perfectly clear that I was no longer just discussing nurseries, but I can park that for now.

Nothing to stop anyone from campaigning for more mixed sex spaces that would benefit mothers and sons, fathers and daughters, and those not wishing to use facilities according to their sex. Not my problem, though.

DD moved from a co-ed to girls in Year 10. Massively prefers girls only. Aside from that anecdote girls do better in girl-only educational settings, that’s been a know fact for a long time. Being away from increasingly porn-soaked boys in the teenage years can only be a good thing.

As I discussed with the woman doing my mammogram, if they opened it up to male staff and then gave women a choice, the end result would be huge queues for the female staff while the man did less than half the work. Which would be great for him, but rather less great for his colleagues and the women having scans.

Have you had a mammogram? It’s nothing like a smear. Nothing. Takes much longer, can involve a lot of handling of your breasts and the scanner (sonographer?) is right there in your face while doing so.

I notice that you mention privacy and dignity but make no mention of safety. Mixed sex spaces have been shown to be less safe for women and girls.

But again, it comes down to - if you’re fine with men being treated as potential rapists when needing a wee while out and about, why the concern about men being treated as potential rapists in a nursery?

Bottom line - which do people care about more?

The right of a man to work in a nursery and do intimate care for babies and toddler, knowing that he is of the sex class far more likely to assault those babies and toddlers, sex being the biggest determiner of who commits sexual assault?

Or the rights of those babies and toddlers to be kept as safe as possible while at the nursery?

I would have hoped on MN it would be a no-brainier.

Do the rights to a single sex space trump the concern by mums that their son might not be safe in a male changing room? Surely having an older daughter this would be much more relevant to you than nursery staff? Hypothetically, if you were the leisure centre manager, would you enforce the 'no boys 8 or over in ladies changing room'? Or would you have more sympathy with the mums of boys and tell the girls they just have to get on with it? It's all very well being 'pro single sex spaces' until it becomes a trickier question. Then it's 'not my problem'!

I'm personally not treating all men in a shared toilet as potential rapists. My concern about sharing a changing area with males is for me, linked to privacy, respect and dignity more than safety. I'm not dismissing that for some people safety might be their first consideration, Everyone has different perspectives and priorities.

No I haven't had a manmogram, but I did go with my mum when she had one so I am aware what they are like. And that's why I suggested people expressing a preference in advance so they could be booked with a female staff member.Some may prefer being seen quicker regardless of who it's with, and some may prioritise being seen by a women. I'm a physio, which is pretty up close and personal too, clothes often removed at least partially and we have mums who express a preference for a female physio for their child. This is always agreed, although may involve a slightly longer wait than if reception able to book with anyone and people are given a choice. I'm all for choice, but choice is personal, people have different priorities. I wouldn't judge anyone who wished to find a nursery with a female staff. I wouldn't be keen on someone who tried to ban others from having a male look after their child.

As I have repeatedly said, it's not about the rights of men to work in a nursery (for me anyway), it's the rights of parents to chose. My brother adopted a little boy who had been violently abused by his mum and mums same sex partner, but was close to his grandad. He is much happier with males in general, and was more happy with my brother than his wife, at least initially. He only settled in pre school when switched to a male keyworker. This was the right option for him. It may not have been the right option for another child.

The numbers of female abusers are vastly smaller than males. It's about risk. Of course safeguarding in nurseries is crucial, but having males involved in intimate care for small children is simply a risk too far for many.

I'm not sure from that comment that you understand what sexism is.

Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination against men based on their gender - you are reinforcing a gender stereotype by suggesting that all men are dangerous to babies and infants.

I'm just glad the majority don't agree with you. I find some of the comments on this thread very concerning and depressing. Not all men are the same.

There are many practical things that can be done to ensure the safety of children in nurseries, perhaps if people focused their energies on that rather than trying to stop all men from working in nurseries the world would be a safer people for babies and young infants.

No, it’s is you who doesn’t understand.

Men commit the vast majority of sec offences. The vast majority. That you think there’s any comparison between men and women on this point is embarrassing.

Is it sexist to have female only toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, etc?

It's not prejudice based on stereotypes, it's risk assessment based on reality.

Again to repeat myself, 98% of sexual offences are perpetrated by males not females.

You care nothing about the children or their safety.
You are only interested in "men's rights".
Your priorities are the wrong way round.

Most decent men would not even consider putting themselves forward for this type of work because they would never want even a hint of suspicion that they could be pedophiles. Most men know full well the danger involved and would not be supportive of some unrelated male looking after their precious baby/toddler.
No man I know would support your view.

I would go as far as to say that more women than men would support you but that is because women are groomed from birth to "be kind" and also a lot of women really don't realize how perverted some men are and the lengths they go to to mask their evil intentions.

Men would not be able to give intimate care to a woman in hospital. Is that sexist?

It's insightful that every time I call people out on here they resort to personal attacks. You are losing the argument when you do that.

Saying that you don’t understand something that you clearly don’t isn’t a personal attack.

Why aren’t you answering my question?

Male nurses do give intimate care to women in hospitals. I don't understand your post.

When I gave birth most of the people in the room where male..admittedly they were doctors rather than nurses but that was certainly intimate

Answer the question.

There would need to be a lot more staff employed in nurseries to achieve this though. In a small setting, say with only 3 adults, if 2 are changing a nappy, that leaves one adult with everyone else. This would be unsafe. In our preschool, numbers only allow 2 adults working in the PM session. It wouldn't be possible unless funding and fees went up. Staff are often stretched very thinly supporting a vast range of complex needs. Each morning session it takes an hour to change all the nappies! Plus multiple toilet training trips. Some days it feels like one adult has barely left the bathroom with all the intimate care needs. Safeguarding is paramount, but nurseries are very constrained with staffing levels.

Suggesting that I should be embarrassed or I'm embarrassing is....

I hope you've reported that deeply offensive personal attack to MN then so they can deal with it accordingly.

Tbh it is very embarrassing to be advocating for men's rights over children's safety though.

The difference is thst an adult woman can request female only care. A small child has no say. Do you think any of the families affected by these nursery abuse families will ever allow a strange man near their child again?

Who said all men are pedos?
That is a red herring.

One man in a nursery in Australia was a pedophile but over the course of his employment (8 years) he had access to 1,200 children, all of whom had to be tested for gonorrhea, chlamydia and other STDs.
One pedophile in a nursery can do immeasurable levels of damage to babies and toddlers. They don't stop at one child.