Page 13 | To think it is not at all sad that the Women's Institute is now only for actual women?

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 2025-12-03T11:36:29+00:00

^“Incredibly sadly, we will have to restrict our membership on the basis of biological sex from April next year,” Green said. “But the message we really want to get across is that it remains our firm belief that transgender women are women, and that doesn’t change.”^ [[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/dec/03/womens-institute-no-longer-accept-trans-women-members-april https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/dec/03/womens-institute-no-longer-accept-trans-women-members-april]] Tellingly - they still think women can have a penis.

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 03/12/2025 15:41

FloralHighNotes · 03/12/2025 14:56

I am also disappointed to see the Men's shed isn't an exclusively male space. Why is that, does anyone know?

Unfortunately, there are certain people (both men and women) who don't like members of the opposite sex having their own spaces.

Feminists (Julie Bindel, for example) are now admitting that campaigns that forced gentlemens' clubs and golf clubs to admit women were probably misconceived. The success of those campaigns has certainly made arguments for women only organisations a lot harder.

There are three Men's Sheds in the county I live in. One has started allowing the wives of members to join. The other two are strictly men only.

The women in the mixed group completely changed the group dynamic and a lot of the members have left. Even the husbands of the women who wanted to join weren't happy about it.

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If I understand correctly, the original campaign to open up men’s clubs/golf clubs etc to women was because that’s where the power was. Deals were done, candidates for office were selected, funny handshakes were made. All excluding women. I grew up in a working class, northern, strongly matriarchal old fashioned type of society and there was a broad tolerance and even encouragement for men to have their own spaces down the allotment or snooker club or playing darts at the pub. They could chat man stuff and were doing no harm there and it got them out from under my maternal ancestors feet. There was nothing stopping the women going down the allotment or pub, but also nothing to make them feel they were missing out by not going.

Hopefully we’re getting to a point where the pendulum stops swinging so much and ends up hanging in the middle. A recognition that some single sex social organisations are perfectly valid, especially on the grounds of addressing imbalance in opportunities, and offering community and mental health support. I think Men’s Sheds and Andy’s Man Club are excellent initiatives.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 03/12/2025 15:41

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:43

It's funny that no-one will actually answer the question though. Are you happy for a trans man to turn up? Really really really happy? It has to work both ways.

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Yes I am happy for transmen to be able to join the WI because they are women.

in fact I think it’s dreadfully transphobic that they are excluded but then most calls for trans rights are really just demands on behalf of men.

If however they choose to join just to be disruptive TRAs then they can be chucked out

Original poster

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 03/12/2025 15:43

CunningLinguist2 · 03/12/2025 15:24

Good on the WI to stick to their guns and belief that transgender women are women. I agree with them wholeheartedly - and no, save your breath and "What aboutism", "pervs in dresses" etc. etc. :D
Just here to say what I believe - end of.
Carry on :D

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men in dresses are men.

OP posts:

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 15:49

ThatCyanCat · 03/12/2025 15:37

JKR: I am funding two charities for vulnerable women and children.

RANDOM: Why aren't you helping people?

What do you infer Random thinks about women and children?

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That the poster doesn't think what JKR is doing is actually helping people. Obviously.

The poster you're trying patronise has been talking about women and children in poverty, starving, losing their jobs, having nowhere to live, not having enough to eat. She clearly thinks poverty is a much bigger issue in society currently and that the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone because trans stuff isn't important to a lot of people and a good portion of younger people just see her as having a Vendetta rather than being a philanthropist.

You disagree about that, which is fine, but you really are just making yourself look silly with you YoU tHiNk WoMeN aReN't PeOpLe bullshit. And being so desperate to talk down someone like a silly little child doesn't reflect well on you. You can just hear the finger wagging through the screen with the "I know you didn't mean to say women aren't people..."

ArabellaSaurus · 03/12/2025 15:51

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 15:49

That the poster doesn't think what JKR is doing is actually helping people. Obviously.

The poster you're trying patronise has been talking about women and children in poverty, starving, losing their jobs, having nowhere to live, not having enough to eat. She clearly thinks poverty is a much bigger issue in society currently and that the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone because trans stuff isn't important to a lot of people and a good portion of younger people just see her as having a Vendetta rather than being a philanthropist.

You disagree about that, which is fine, but you really are just making yourself look silly with you YoU tHiNk WoMeN aReN't PeOpLe bullshit. And being so desperate to talk down someone like a silly little child doesn't reflect well on you. You can just hear the finger wagging through the screen with the "I know you didn't mean to say women aren't people..."

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JKR is by any measure 'helping people'. Don't be obtuse.

ArabellaSaurus · 03/12/2025 15:54

ohnonotthisargumentagain · 03/12/2025 15:32

Of course if the WI had gone officially mixed sex then a lot of women would have either left or fought it.

I don't think that's possible. Their founding principles have them set up as an organisation for women.

PacificState · 03/12/2025 15:56

Daaaaahling · 03/12/2025 14:47

Yes I do understand this. Meeting people where they are takes patience but it's more effective in getting across your point. Still, I genuinely think the broad strokes of the campaign to protect women's legal status and rights have been effective. Just look at the results. Not only legally but with the tide of (expressed) public opinion. Straight talking, even a little abrasively at times, appears to be working fine. So I think you're probably worrying too much.

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Definitely, definitely has been wildly successful, and women much braver than me have won huge, important victories. I cried when I saw the SC judgement. I don’t want to minimise what that took, and that they didn’t do it by being ‘nice’ - absolutely. I just wanted to stick my oar in on this, because I really do have a nagging (sorry) sense that we’re in a different political context now: we’re the victors, not the agitators. But if you turn out to be correct, I’ll be glad.

ThatCyanCat · 03/12/2025 15:57

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 15:49

That the poster doesn't think what JKR is doing is actually helping people. Obviously.

The poster you're trying patronise has been talking about women and children in poverty, starving, losing their jobs, having nowhere to live, not having enough to eat. She clearly thinks poverty is a much bigger issue in society currently and that the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone because trans stuff isn't important to a lot of people and a good portion of younger people just see her as having a Vendetta rather than being a philanthropist.

You disagree about that, which is fine, but you really are just making yourself look silly with you YoU tHiNk WoMeN aReN't PeOpLe bullshit. And being so desperate to talk down someone like a silly little child doesn't reflect well on you. You can just hear the finger wagging through the screen with the "I know you didn't mean to say women aren't people..."

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I'll be honest, I assumed most people reading would be capable of seeing the nuance (and judging by the likes, I know at least some people did, so my point wasn't so badly made as to go over everyone's head).

When you accuse someone of not helping people because they help primarily women and children, it's unlikely that you are suggesting that women and children are not members of the Homo sapiens species (although if you are arguing that men can be women, you don't know much about Homo sapiens so I wouldn't be too certain). You are, however, suggesting that "people" possess an inherent nature, humanity perhaps, that gives them value. And whether you meant to or not, you've let slip that on some level, you do not think women and children possess this value. They are not included in what you meant by "people" when you so valiantly and heroically called for help for people.

Hence why I told that poster that I was sure they didn't mean to imply that women and children aren't people, with all the inherent value that carries, but they had, and so perhaps it was time to do some mental recalibration. (And I know they didn't mention names but if you believe they weren't thinking of JKR, you'll believe anything).

So I hope that clears it up for you. If it doesn't, I cannot simplify it any further and given most people seem to have got it, I'm wary about why you need so much extra time for it.

ETA: JKR isn't helping anyone? She's helping women and children. Do you want to go round again?

medievalpenny · 03/12/2025 15:58

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 15:49

That the poster doesn't think what JKR is doing is actually helping people. Obviously.

The poster you're trying patronise has been talking about women and children in poverty, starving, losing their jobs, having nowhere to live, not having enough to eat. She clearly thinks poverty is a much bigger issue in society currently and that the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone because trans stuff isn't important to a lot of people and a good portion of younger people just see her as having a Vendetta rather than being a philanthropist.

You disagree about that, which is fine, but you really are just making yourself look silly with you YoU tHiNk WoMeN aReN't PeOpLe bullshit. And being so desperate to talk down someone like a silly little child doesn't reflect well on you. You can just hear the finger wagging through the screen with the "I know you didn't mean to say women aren't people..."

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"the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone"? Do you even know what she does?

https://www.annerowlingclinic.org/

https://beirasplace.org.uk/

https://www.wearelumos.org/

https://volanttrust.org/

Homepage

Lumos, founded by author J.K. Rowling, realises every child’s right to a family by transforming care systems around the world.

https://www.wearelumos.org

Gloriia · 03/12/2025 16:08

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 15:49

That the poster doesn't think what JKR is doing is actually helping people. Obviously.

The poster you're trying patronise has been talking about women and children in poverty, starving, losing their jobs, having nowhere to live, not having enough to eat. She clearly thinks poverty is a much bigger issue in society currently and that the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone because trans stuff isn't important to a lot of people and a good portion of younger people just see her as having a Vendetta rather than being a philanthropist.

You disagree about that, which is fine, but you really are just making yourself look silly with you YoU tHiNk WoMeN aReN't PeOpLe bullshit. And being so desperate to talk down someone like a silly little child doesn't reflect well on you. You can just hear the finger wagging through the screen with the "I know you didn't mean to say women aren't people..."

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I mean really, JK doesn't help anyone?! You mustn't be taken in by the men in dresses who seem to have painted her as some kind of villain.

She helps women. Trans people and their allies try to get rid of her but she isn't going anywhere.

ThatCyanCat · 03/12/2025 16:15

"How dare you say that someone doesn't think women and children are people? Also, her charities for women and children don't help anyone!"

EasternStandard · 03/12/2025 16:20

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 15:49

That the poster doesn't think what JKR is doing is actually helping people. Obviously.

The poster you're trying patronise has been talking about women and children in poverty, starving, losing their jobs, having nowhere to live, not having enough to eat. She clearly thinks poverty is a much bigger issue in society currently and that the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone because trans stuff isn't important to a lot of people and a good portion of younger people just see her as having a Vendetta rather than being a philanthropist.

You disagree about that, which is fine, but you really are just making yourself look silly with you YoU tHiNk WoMeN aReN't PeOpLe bullshit. And being so desperate to talk down someone like a silly little child doesn't reflect well on you. You can just hear the finger wagging through the screen with the "I know you didn't mean to say women aren't people..."

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@medievalpennylinks are useful. JKR helps women.

Nanny0gg · 03/12/2025 16:23

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 03/12/2025 11:42

The article does say existing male members will have to leave, does not say how. Weird to delay until April as well, assume some males will join prior to that date now maybe.

April is when subs are due.

Trans women members can't rejoin

Though - there is no record kept of who is or isn't trans. So it will be interesting to see how that works

ArabellaSaurus · 03/12/2025 16:29

Just noting that the SWRI in Scotland has recently relaunched its website. Not a whisper of any men on it, anywhere.

https://www.theswi.org.uk/

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 16:29

LighthouseLED · 03/12/2025 11:54

I feel sorry for the 80 year old mentioned in the article who has been a member for years.

I think it’s fair enough to restrict membership in the future, but there ought to be an exemption for those transwomen who have been going for years without any issues. These are not activists - they are people just trying to live their own lives.

This assumes that there 'was no issues' and that this male person being included in what should have been kept as a female single sex provision did no harm at all to a female person.

A male person simply being included in that provision would have had some negative impact on female people who needed this provision to remain single sex.

Nanny0gg · 03/12/2025 16:30

S1ngS1ng · 03/12/2025 12:13

That’s ridiculous. A few anti trans bullies don’t speak for the whole of MN. There is nothing to celebrate and many think it’s a sad day. Feel so sorry for those elderly trans members battling a double whammy of loneliness and exclusion now barred from attending. They’re doing no harm by attending and many will miss friends now barred from attending .The WI being forced to do this is so petty and nasty and the glee from a few on here is revolting. Just shows the mindset of a few. Feel sorry for WI they’re between a rock and a hard place.

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As a WI member (in a 100% all women institute) I applaud the ruling.

Standing up for your own sex doesn't make you a bully

ProfessorBinturong · 03/12/2025 16:31

PacificState · 03/12/2025 14:03

I know it's the law right now, but all it takes is a majority in Parliament and a different kind of government and we could have a new law that eradicates 'female' as a legal definition. I'm advocating for a strategy that recognises that possibility and seeks to mitigate that risk. A laser focus on crucial single-sex spaces (healthcare, sexual violence, any space where people undress or sleep or live in close quarters), and whatever is necessary for correct data collection so that we can accurately assess how women are faring. Single sex sports as an issue has basically already been won (not without a massive fight, of course.)

In terms of what a redrafted EA should look like - that's really hard. Maybe an explicit categorisation of services in which bio sex is critical, and services in which bio sex is non-critical? Absolute hornets' nest, I'll grant you. I hope gender critical people with good legal brains are thinking about this, because you can bet your ass the TRA lawyers have a redrafted bill ready to go.

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Ha! We've seen the quality of their lawyers. I'm not worried.

Nanny0gg · 03/12/2025 16:33

PacificState · 03/12/2025 12:17

Hmm OK I'll bite. For what it's worth I'm generally gender critical: I think bio sex is a real thing, that it forms the basis of women's oppression, and that the pretence over the last ten years that it doesn't matter/doesn't exist has been injurious for women.

But I think the insistence that an entirely voluntary association should exclude transwomen against the wishes of its board (and possibly its membership) is disproportionate and risks looking unnecessarily cruel. Nobody HAS to join the WI, and nobody will be denied crucial services if they don't join, so it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a nut. For what it's worth I feel the same about Park Run: it's a fun project whose whole purpose is inclusion. (If you want to compare competitive run times, there are dedicated sports clubs you can join for that.)

I think this is a flaw in the SC judgement (consequential on the drafting of the Equality Act) that over time might undermine the whole sex-realist project. It makes sex-realist action look cruel, disproportionate and obsessive.

What matters is that women must be able to access single sex spaces and services where they really matter, eg for healthcare and critical aspects of wellbeing (refuges, rape crisis centres, mental health services). Competitive sports are off in a category of their own and most people don't dispute the need for single sex provision there. Organisations for children are also in a separate category IMO.

Conflating those things with voluntary associations for adults, whose purpose is to provide general socialising and support is a category error, in my opinion. And risks being politically disastrous in the long run.

Can I just say, that to the best of my knowledge and certainly not in my time, members were never asked.

And when I joined and I read the constitution, to the best of my knowledge, it's not mentioned in there either

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 16:35

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 15:49

That the poster doesn't think what JKR is doing is actually helping people. Obviously.

The poster you're trying patronise has been talking about women and children in poverty, starving, losing their jobs, having nowhere to live, not having enough to eat. She clearly thinks poverty is a much bigger issue in society currently and that the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone because trans stuff isn't important to a lot of people and a good portion of younger people just see her as having a Vendetta rather than being a philanthropist.

You disagree about that, which is fine, but you really are just making yourself look silly with you YoU tHiNk WoMeN aReN't PeOpLe bullshit. And being so desperate to talk down someone like a silly little child doesn't reflect well on you. You can just hear the finger wagging through the screen with the "I know you didn't mean to say women aren't people..."

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It seems ludicrous to make a statement that JK Rowling is not doing anything to actually help people. Particularly mentioning 'poverty, having nowhere to live' etc. JK Rowling is directly helping women and girls with those things.

There seems a great deal of misinformation and dismissal about what she does do on these pages.

Nanny0gg · 03/12/2025 16:35

S1ngS1ng · 03/12/2025 12:24

Oh do give over and stop being inflammatory and over dramatic. If you are saying all trans people are larping at men it’s discrimination more and simple.

There are not many social groups for the elderly and even fewer for elderly trans people- its vile.

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Bloody hell!

Enough with the elderly!

The age range is from 18 -100

And there are more of the 25- 40 age range than you'd think

borntobequiet · 03/12/2025 16:37

YANBU at all.

Of course all that Sisterhood nonsense will die a death, because what these men want is validation. And that means they want exactly what women have.

Nanny0gg · 03/12/2025 16:39

itsthetea · 03/12/2025 12:36

I can’t see why they can’t include all men - you know be inclusive

For the same reason there are men-only organisations

Sometimes we like to be with other women. Men change the dynamics

And vice-versa

There are mixed sex organisations for those that want both or don't care

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 16:40

JHound · 03/12/2025 15:09

It was perfectly clear.

You failed to understand what I wrote which is your issue not mine.

Nowhere did I state it’s sad that private organisations cannot choose to ignore the law.

Saying it’s sad they cannot decide for themselves makes it very clear I am talking about the restrictions the law imposes.

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Surely the solution is that if the majority of the members wish to make a change, that an official change is made in accordance with the laws.

If the WI has not made an official change to become mixed sex, then there will be a reason for this. Likely it is that it would not be a popular decision.

ContentedAlpaca · 03/12/2025 16:40

medievalpenny · 03/12/2025 15:58

"the JKR stuff isn't actually helping anyone"? Do you even know what she does?

https://www.annerowlingclinic.org/

https://beirasplace.org.uk/

https://www.wearelumos.org/

https://volanttrust.org/

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I only knew about two of these. Thankyou for sharing.

DonicaLewinsky · 03/12/2025 16:41

S1ngS1ng · 03/12/2025 12:24

Oh do give over and stop being inflammatory and over dramatic. If you are saying all trans people are larping at men it’s discrimination more and simple.

There are not many social groups for the elderly and even fewer for elderly trans people- its vile.

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Then take the time you're wasting making evidence free claims about elderly males doing no harm, and instead use it to do all you can to establish groups for them. Women's single sex spaces aren't for them as males to colonise or you as a sympathiser to give away. But the good news is you can create others instead. That would be something actually worthwhile.