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To think it is not at all sad that the Women's Institute is now only for actual women?

1000 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 03/12/2025 11:36

“Incredibly sadly, we will have to restrict our membership on the basis of biological sex from April next year,” Green said. “But the message we really want to get across is that it remains our firm belief that transgender women are women, and that doesn’t change.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/dec/03/womens-institute-no-longer-accept-trans-women-members-april

Tellingly - they still think women can have a penis.

Women’s Institute will no longer accept trans women as members from April

Exclusive: CEO says decision taken with ‘utmost regret and sadness’ after supreme court ruling on definition of a woman

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/dec/03/womens-institute-no-longer-accept-trans-women-members-april

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
RedToothBrush · 03/12/2025 14:24

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:18

So are you all ok with a trans man turning up to your next WI meeting? He'll be presenting very much as male but who knows what he's packing, are you going to check? Absolutely ridiculous, the whole bunch of you. What exactly do you think trans people are going to get up to at the WI? Make the tea the wrong way? Do a slightly dodgy flower arrangement? Infiltrate the scone baking process? Do you have any idea of the mental and physical trauma a trans patient goes through? Do you have an inkling what it might be like living in the wrong body? Do you really think someone would go through all that to gain access to women at a WI event? Oh yes I forgot this is MN where tolerance only goes one way and where everyone believes those who choose to no longer be male must be a rapist. Where's your humanity?

What's wrong with TomBoys?

Or have we just descended to a level where sexism is that bad you have to alter your body and pretend to be the opposite sex, because other people will simultaneously implode at the prospect.

Transman are women.

GailBlancheViola · 03/12/2025 14:26

JHound · 03/12/2025 14:13

I think it’s sad that a private organisation cannot decide for itself if it wants an inclusive organisation or not. Personally if I was not happy with the membership policies I would simply not join that establishment.I

It does seem like they want to try and arrange trans exclusive “sisterhood” groups next year. I wonder if the law will allow that.

Edited

If the WI wants to include men in the organisation then they need to change their membership policy and constitution. Their policy is one of a single sex organisation, they are using the law to apply this and that law states the organisation must be single sex. By including men who claim to be women they are not only breaking the law they are breaking their own policy - that is the point you are so spectacularly missing.

truthsayers · 03/12/2025 14:26

i’m just shocked that only 91 percent of nearly 500 posters think it’s not sad. Why the fuck 100 percent of women don’t support women, you know, the actual bio kind, instead of the bepenised variety in a dress, is beyond me. Fuck GirlGuides and Fuck the WI for conceding that women have rights whilst also sounding so pathetic and sad about it.

SabrinaThwaite · 03/12/2025 14:27

JHound · 03/12/2025 14:24

Ok - not really changed anything I have said.

Well you said it's sad that the WI can't ignore the law.

Limehawkmoth · 03/12/2025 14:28

Limehawkmoth · 03/12/2025 14:24

I was about to respond along these lines

The WI can be a mixed sex based organisation. Can change its rules right now. Everyone would know where they stand. Any man, whether trans identifying could then join.

BUT the point is the WI needs to appeal to its biological centred adult female base, as it always had. They’re the bottoms that fill most of seats. And a large amount of them would not stay in an upfront mixed sex organisation allowing any man to come along, even if he didn’t think he was a woman.

so it’s got itself into the pickle of how it defines woman, so as to still pretend it’s about women only. And now courts have said, nope, that’s not definition of women

i have no sympathy at all. Even now they can put their money where their mouth is, and stop lamaenting, and just bloody admit they’ve been a mixed sex organisation for years, and intend to just say that. Any man, pretending he’s a owmen on the day, can rock up then. They need to stop fannying around by including some men and excluding others. And sitting on fence in pretence of being kind. .

I’d also add, that’s once the pretence of it being a woman only group goes, into any man csn joint, the trans men will get bored they can’t invade women single sex spaces to validate their feelings, and drop out

just like they don’t want to participate in mixed sex sports categories. or use mixed sex loos

its always about invading women’s single sex spaces.

ThatCyanCat · 03/12/2025 14:29

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:18

So are you all ok with a trans man turning up to your next WI meeting? He'll be presenting very much as male but who knows what he's packing, are you going to check? Absolutely ridiculous, the whole bunch of you. What exactly do you think trans people are going to get up to at the WI? Make the tea the wrong way? Do a slightly dodgy flower arrangement? Infiltrate the scone baking process? Do you have any idea of the mental and physical trauma a trans patient goes through? Do you have an inkling what it might be like living in the wrong body? Do you really think someone would go through all that to gain access to women at a WI event? Oh yes I forgot this is MN where tolerance only goes one way and where everyone believes those who choose to no longer be male must be a rapist. Where's your humanity?

Trans men are women so that's absolutely fine.

However, since you're about the 6874467865468876th person to try the Transman Gotcha, you will be glad to know that the SC ruling covered this. If this made up person really, truly does appear to be so much like a man that nobody who interacts with her can tell that she isn't one, she can legally be excluded because her presence will cause the same distress and self exclusion as an actual man. That's a shame for her but frankly it's her problem. You need to do more than have short hair and no makeup to pass as a man. Showing up to a WI meeting to make a point will only prove that she knows she's a woman.

ETA: And where is your humanity for the women who need these spaces, possibly as a place to seek help away from abusive husbands, or for reasons of trauma, or for cultural reasons, or who just plain want to go somewhere and gather without men? Why are these people denied this humanity?

truthsayers · 03/12/2025 14:30

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:18

So are you all ok with a trans man turning up to your next WI meeting? He'll be presenting very much as male but who knows what he's packing, are you going to check? Absolutely ridiculous, the whole bunch of you. What exactly do you think trans people are going to get up to at the WI? Make the tea the wrong way? Do a slightly dodgy flower arrangement? Infiltrate the scone baking process? Do you have any idea of the mental and physical trauma a trans patient goes through? Do you have an inkling what it might be like living in the wrong body? Do you really think someone would go through all that to gain access to women at a WI event? Oh yes I forgot this is MN where tolerance only goes one way and where everyone believes those who choose to no longer be male must be a rapist. Where's your humanity?

no, you’re the ridiculous one @Mumof2heroes
I’m guessing you’ve never heard of AGP? Can’t imagine why a man would get off on infiltrating female spaces? Like Isla Bryson?
Do you always have mixed sex social outings and never want to just talk to women? A transwoman is a man and a trans girl is a boy. Let’s not fuck with language and common sense, it’s not 2018 anymore.

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 14:32

PacificState · 03/12/2025 13:18

'If they want to include males then call it something other than the women’s institute., but if they want to keep it as the women’s institute then why are there males there?' - The honest answer is because there are plenty of women (and men) in the UK who want to affirm transwomen as women and transmen as men, especially in purely social spaces. They don't want an organisation that insists on designating transwomen as male; they want one that embraces them as women.

And I think that's OK, honestly. Same as it's fine to invite a transwoman to your hen night or to a women's book club. Why shouldn't you, if that's what you believe?

It's not my personal philosophy, but then I'm not a Christian, and nevertheless I don't campaign against churches.

People having private events are allowed to invite them and call them whatever they want. According to their personal philosophy.

The problem with what you are suggesting is that organisations like the WI, GG, or Scouts, are subject to laws about discrimination. Discrimination on the basis of sex is not allowed, unless it is for a legitimate reason.

Scouts is fine on this. They were fine when they had only boys and men. And they are fine now that they allow males and females.

The WI and GG have chosen to make the argument that they are going to exclude men. So they have to use the definition of men that the legislation does when it allows for that. And that isn't down to anyone's personal philosophy, it can't be because it has to be defined by the relevant laws.

So their choices are:
Remain single sex,
Open to all men

or, if they really feel strongly, advocate to change the law to allow trans people to be classed as the opposite sex, or perhaps more likely, allow them to use gender identity to for exclusive groups.

But no kinds of equalities laws or legislation will work if everyone can just define the groups as they like!

JHound · 03/12/2025 14:33

GailBlancheViola · 03/12/2025 14:26

If the WI wants to include men in the organisation then they need to change their membership policy and constitution. Their policy is one of a single sex organisation, they are using the law to apply this and that law states the organisation must be single sex. By including men who claim to be women they are not only breaking the law they are breaking their own policy - that is the point you are so spectacularly missing.

Which changes nothing that I said.

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 14:33

ThatCyanCat · 03/12/2025 14:17

That's not a rebuttal.

When someone says tgat dedicating resources to vulnerable women and children isn't helping people, they're revealing how unimportant they think women and children are.

No one is stupid enough to actually think someone believes women aren't people.

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2025 14:34

ApplePie16 · 03/12/2025 13:03

The supreme court ruling was about the equality act. It was also a waste of time and money.

I disagree.

I donated to the crowd justice fund raiser so that FWS could take the Scottish government to the Supreme Court.

I think it was a great use of my money, I don't think it was wasted at all. And I'm so incredibly grateful that Susan, Marion and Trina spent their time and energy fighting for the rights of women.

JHound · 03/12/2025 14:34

SabrinaThwaite · 03/12/2025 14:27

Well you said it's sad that the WI can't ignore the law.

No - I did not say that. Being said at what a law allows / disallows is not the same as saying it’s sad somebody cannot simply ignore the law.

And I sure you knew that.

Instructions · 03/12/2025 14:36

I am glad to see it. Just as I am glad that girl guides will once again be for girls.

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 14:36

JHound · 03/12/2025 14:13

I think it’s sad that a private organisation cannot decide for itself if it wants an inclusive organisation or not. Personally if I was not happy with the membership policies I would simply not join that establishment.I

It does seem like they want to try and arrange trans exclusive “sisterhood” groups next year. I wonder if the law will allow that.

Edited

So you are ok with organisations deciding how and when they want to follow the law with regards to sexism, racism, or other types of exclusion?

Private clubs of course can already do this, but you think organisations like Girl Guides should be able to?

Easytoconfuse · 03/12/2025 14:36

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 03/12/2025 11:44

I thought the whole reason for the FWR gender section on here was so that topics like this wouldn't take over the general forums.

I have a simple solution for you. Don't read it if you don't like it.

Daaaaahling · 03/12/2025 14:36

PacificState · 03/12/2025 14:03

I know it's the law right now, but all it takes is a majority in Parliament and a different kind of government and we could have a new law that eradicates 'female' as a legal definition. I'm advocating for a strategy that recognises that possibility and seeks to mitigate that risk. A laser focus on crucial single-sex spaces (healthcare, sexual violence, any space where people undress or sleep or live in close quarters), and whatever is necessary for correct data collection so that we can accurately assess how women are faring. Single sex sports as an issue has basically already been won (not without a massive fight, of course.)

In terms of what a redrafted EA should look like - that's really hard. Maybe an explicit categorisation of services in which bio sex is critical, and services in which bio sex is non-critical? Absolute hornets' nest, I'll grant you. I hope gender critical people with good legal brains are thinking about this, because you can bet your ass the TRA lawyers have a redrafted bill ready to go.

I see your point but I don't see what strategy could have avoided the current press coverage. Feminists had to clarify the law to protect women in so-called critical spaces where they were being abjectly failed and discriminated against.

Since that clarification has been achieved, ultimately, the WI have to obey the law and evict their special male members. That is out of anybody's hands now. It was always going to reach the press and the trans brigade was always going to run the sob stories as far as they would go. This was unavoidable short of not meeting the fundamental objective of clarifying and protecting women's status in law.

Then - onto probably our major point of disagreement - the notion of non critical spaces. The problem is, so much of what isn't critical, can still add up incrementally to significantly harm women and girls' dignity, opportunities etc.

Sport is the easiest example. I do think for instance, never being able to win the park race, it simply not being possible to win biologically because you're competing against a man - harms amateur female runners. Harms women. And critically, only women. There is no impact on men. You have to understand that old men in their 60s literally beat women in their prime at this kind of level of competition and that virtually any man who has trained can beat the best woman there. It harms female participation. Women literally cannot compete.

And yes it's "just park run" but it still matters to (many of) the people who participate. If there are women who don't care about their performance competitively, and want to show solidarity with or have companionship with trans competitors, or any males - there is no barrier to them asking for and then competing within the same mixed race. But I personally think that if you run a racing event in which men and women participate, and which men have the option to win, then women need also to have the option to win. Not just to be accessories in a men's race. In principle it is wrong to invite women to participate in a women's race and then allow them to be beaten in that race by a man.

But outside of "just park run" / insert amateur activity - there is a knock on effect on competitive sport as well. Every competitive or professional sportsperson was once a child or an amateur, has filtered through a non/less competitive, less important grassroots level of sport. When women and girls are sidelined in the very limited single sex grassroots sporting clubs/events/activities that are actually available to girls/women - by boys/men who out compete them in a non protected "female" category or simply intimidate or injure them, that has an impact on their future prospects in competitive or professional sport too. It has an impact on every single women and girl watching and being inspired by female performance.

Just my 2pence

ThatCyanCat · 03/12/2025 14:37

LadyFreja · 03/12/2025 14:33

No one is stupid enough to actually think someone believes women aren't people.

Oh, obviously nobody is going to put it that baldly because it sounds as bad as "men should be allowed to get their dicks out around little girls". But that's exactly what it comes down to. If you castigate a philanthropist who dedicated themselves for services to women and girls because you think they're not helping people, then clearly on some level you think women and children are not people, or at least not as important as other people.

Plain and honest language is the death of this ideology.

Ilikechristmas · 03/12/2025 14:38

LighthouseLED · 03/12/2025 11:58

You are hypothesising

With good reason though. I myself have chosen not to attend women only events which are open to anyone who identifies as a woman. If I go to a woman's only event or organisation, I go because I want something that is woman only. What's the point of going if it is, or might be, mixed sex. This means I miss out on a lot of things I would otherwise have enjoyed.

There are lots of women making choices like mine. But no-one knows about it as this massive societal change from single sex to mixed sex ( women and trans identifying males) has been made without anyone monitoring or researching the impact on women.

hholiday · 03/12/2025 14:38

Amazing news – and amazing to see so many women on here celebrating. That poll is pretty definitive!

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:41

truthsayers · 03/12/2025 14:30

no, you’re the ridiculous one @Mumof2heroes
I’m guessing you’ve never heard of AGP? Can’t imagine why a man would get off on infiltrating female spaces? Like Isla Bryson?
Do you always have mixed sex social outings and never want to just talk to women? A transwoman is a man and a trans girl is a boy. Let’s not fuck with language and common sense, it’s not 2018 anymore.

But you didn't answer the question, are you ok with a trans man turning up? Who's going to look in their trousers? Men don't need to pretend to be women to cause harm and those that do are a vanishingly small percentage. I have in fact heard of AGP but do you really think that's relevant in a voluntary organisation for (generally) older women? I just think we've lost perspective here and that's dangerous because it undermines and diminishes women's causes. We just look petty and spiteful and won't be taken seriously.

BreadInCaptivity · 03/12/2025 14:41

Excellent news and worth celebrating 🎉

I do wonder however how compatible spending funds on their proposed “sisterhood” groups sits with their single sex mandate.

Frankly I wish women would stop feeling obligated or even virtuous in fixing men’s problems or meeting their needs.

Cars4Gov · 03/12/2025 14:43

I think it’s sad that a private organisation cannot decide for itself if it wants an inclusive organisation

It was set up as single sex and the recent chairs changed to mixed sex. The trustees only hold the organisation in trust for now. Very similar to the girl guides, it was changed in recent times, without consent (and against the constitution).

If they want a mixed inclusive organisation, set one up..simple!

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:43

Brefugee · 03/12/2025 14:22

i really really really wish we could take away all the rights that women have won since the 50s from people who spout this utter bollocks.

Equal rights only for actual card-carrying feminists.

It's funny that no-one will actually answer the question though. Are you happy for a trans man to turn up? Really really really happy? It has to work both ways.

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 14:45

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:41

But you didn't answer the question, are you ok with a trans man turning up? Who's going to look in their trousers? Men don't need to pretend to be women to cause harm and those that do are a vanishingly small percentage. I have in fact heard of AGP but do you really think that's relevant in a voluntary organisation for (generally) older women? I just think we've lost perspective here and that's dangerous because it undermines and diminishes women's causes. We just look petty and spiteful and won't be taken seriously.

Why would anyone mind if a transman shows up?

If they do they are doing so on the basis they are women.

Are you suggesting a real man might pretend to be a transman to get in? That's possible of course, but very nefarious of him.

AgDulAmach · 03/12/2025 14:46

Mumof2heroes · 03/12/2025 14:41

But you didn't answer the question, are you ok with a trans man turning up? Who's going to look in their trousers? Men don't need to pretend to be women to cause harm and those that do are a vanishingly small percentage. I have in fact heard of AGP but do you really think that's relevant in a voluntary organisation for (generally) older women? I just think we've lost perspective here and that's dangerous because it undermines and diminishes women's causes. We just look petty and spiteful and won't be taken seriously.

Isn't it amazing that in a world where men regularly rape and murder women, women are concerned about looking petty and spiteful?

What a massive win for patriarchy. Treat women like shit and them make them afraid to say anything about it for fear they look bad. Meanwhile men don't give one shiny fuck what they look like.

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