Not able to eat at school? Punitive systems

[RainbowDaffodil]

My son has started at a new secondary school. Firstly, I have no issue with detentions and I welcome interventions… but surely all lunchtime is madness?

He was late for example yesterday (bus, traffic -perfect storm. He’s usually very early), punctuality detention is lunchtime 1.25 to 2.05. Lunchtime is 1.25 to 2.15 but the canteen isn’t functioning for the last five min of lunch, which is when he’d get there.

The intervention he’s given in two subjects is the same time two lunchtimes a week. 1.25 to 2.05. I got him to say to the teachers he wanted to go, but he needs to eat. They shrugged and said he’s down for interventions and has to go. No solution or dialogue.

The school day is full, 8.15-3.15. 15 min break at 11:20. Some days they also have expectations for after school work too.

Is this in anyway remotely normal nowadays? My son is a robust kinda kid, friends and confident, but he’s starting to look run down. I get this as I’d be run down! He used to eat me out of house and home but lately he’s going 8-4 without food a few days a week, even with a packed lunch it’s been eaten after school. It’s partly getting time and partly the access to toilets not been there, they seem to manage it restricting drink and food.

He works hard, likes teachers but from my view it’s a punitive system of constant directed time, little access to food or toilets and a behaviour point system where getting one positive point in six weeks is a feat but sitting on a pen and snapping it can land you in detention for not being properly equipped (silly mistake, put his biro in a pocket and sat down). Another behaviour point was for being slow with work-I helped him to understand it at home, he was just stuck and didn’t get a new concept. No negative points are for rudeness/ disruption or any active actions but it’s so easy to get them it feels.

Communication is on the app and all one way. Recently I noticed he had some unauthorised absences so I emailed to ask if he was truanting or it was an error. No reply, but they disappeared on the app. I contacted them too at the start, he wasn’t given an IT account when he started and all the homework is online. He asked lots of times and I emailed but it was weeks of detentions for not doing homework while he couldn’t access the system.

It feels nuts!

It sounds awful-not like any school I’ve ever taught in. Is it an academy?

Could he take a packed lunch?

That's not right. First priority of any school is safety and welfare, not allowing time to eat properly is against those principles.

This sounds completely wrong (I work at an academy; they don’t all do crazy things).

I’d be contacting school and asking them about this. I run a lunchtime intervention and they go grab lunch first!

Packed lunch?

Ridiculous. Even prisoners get fed and are allowed to go to the toilet.

I would withdraw him it sounds completely batshit

Ok.

so, one at a time. Yes, lunchtime detentions are normal. Yes, many secondaries have canteens that are overwhelmed and busy. You need to send in food. Quick snack but filling for the break and something quick and easy to eat at lunchtime.

i worked as a secondary teacher for many years and a lot of secondaries really just don’t have enough canteen space or time for the school. I used to take in a vegan sausage roll for “break” which was 11:30-11:40 and then eat a salad at lunch (1:20-2pm).

you do get used to it although it’s long gaps between food. Lots of kids (and teachers for that matter) just don’t eat and have a big meal after school.

interventions - why is a year 7 on these? In my school these are for year 11’s who can’t or won’t do homework. If he’s behind academically it would be more normal to drop a language and do extra maths and English.

homework - if it is on an online system then most schools will do a computer session where they give students passwords etc and step them through the process. If they have problems it is on the student to go to IT either at break lunch or afterschool and get it sorted. At my school kids with Sen would have it set up so a teacher could access and help them but all others were expected to handle it themselves. Does your child have Sen?

That sounds ridiculous.
Our school detentions are always at the end of the school day.
I don't think even in the days where kids got the cane they made them go without lunch? How do they expect them to learn properly on an empty stomach?

And people wonder why parents choose private schools.

Secondary teacher here. No, that's batshit crazy.

First offence, need get a lighter detention but still time to eat.

Interventions shouldn't replace lunch, kids need time to decompress and socialise or else they'll burn out - which your kid seems to be at risk of.

What you've described is verging on inhuman and not the way any school I've ever worked in operates - not onky because the unions would go crazy about the lack of lunch break for staff while doing intervention as teachers don't get paid for lunch break .

I think you need to talk through your concerns with the head of year and work out a sustainable strategy.

Academies are not good schools at the moment, if this is an academy I'd not be shocked. Hear so many stories like this coming out of our local one and it's all about punishment. It seems to be destroying kids too, ones that have been absolutely thriving at primary, good, hard working happy kids and then left with a hatred of education and do not do as well as they should've.

Your son must be allowed to eat. I would be complaining first thing tomorrow if it were me.

Edit- apart from tomorrow is Sat! Monday, I'd complain Monday :-)

Most kids will have their lunch in the late morning break and grab a snack for the later time. At my DD’s secondary school it’s normal for lunchtime sports clubs and other groups to run over lunchtime - the answer is to eat in the short break.

detentions are normal. A few detentions in Y7 can held dc understand where the boundaries are.

Yes, this is becoming more common.
No, it’s not ok.
Good luck trying to change it.

Is this school in the SW?

I would also say that the parents don’t know the half of it. It’s hard to communicate the extent of the control, coercion, gaslighting, almost abusive way some school leaders direct staff to deal with children these days. If you haven’t worked in a school like it, you can’t imagine it. And that’s before you get to the reductive spoon-feeding scripted direct instruction that passes for lessons. Enormous class sizes. Gradual removal of vocational subjects. No practical. No creativity. All lessons the same.

Not all schools are like it. But they do exist. And are increasingly common.

Few answers:

-year 11, moved school. Very very different experience
-yes, academy
-tried packed lunch, not really resolved it with time to eat it/ restricting food and drink
-no SEN. Higher set, interventions are course study extra classes. Tbf not constant, but had mocks and there were loads. Now they are over there is one I think next week. I don’t really know where he’s at in his higher set- mocks were 6s in yr 10 but I personally doubted them in some areas being accurate.
-IT is resolved now, it was just being new. Couldnt find out who to ask. Someone finally directed him and it was sorted. He was asking his form tutor when he had to go to IT services. New building and all that.

He’s the middle of 5, just has always gone on with things independently. I guess between that and the fact he’s nearly 16 I’ve tried to be a bit hands off. Posting a bit to check in if this is wildly unusual, say something or if he’s just been in a fluffy little environment up until now! Socially he’s great, instant friends made and meeting up outside school. I don’t think I’ve ever emailed any club or setting about him ever to date! He just does his thing usually

it’s a punitive system of constant directed time

This describes teaching generally now. And it's extending to the kids. The chances are teachers don't want to spend their unpaid lunch running detentions or interventions either, but are expected to.

Tbf, the actual lesson quality and feedback about teachers sounds good (though I’ll admit I only have some experience in primary schools). He’s enthusiastic about learning, can repeat learning and has liked interventions as they are usueful. The not getting something lessons, broken pens etc appear to be cover supervision from what I can work out. That’s a whole other story, sounds like there’s chaos, phones out and no work then scattered behaviour points are thrown out. Not there though to really judge…
Overall, I believe there are good teachers. It’s the system it all operates in that seems a bit wild. Most is automatic on the app, late, auto detention, auto escalation if it’s missed… part the problem is kids don’t have this app and it’s not always communicated to them. I may say get a notification he has a detention at lunch, but he was late and missed form time (why he got the lunch detention). By the time he’s home and I can tell him he’s missed it and he’s at Level 2. Most things arise like that.
I’m largely trying to be supportive and make it work… it’s the eating though that’s where my line is. A bit also watching him lose his drive and spark, I can see him disengaged though polite… and he bounced in happy as anything to get the place

Ah, the fact he's transferred schools in Y11 explains a lot. Quite an interesting parental decision.

interesting parental situation as opposed to decision. Housing. It is what it is and I’ve had to make it work. Life happens, and I’d hope to make it work. Not ideal, but I don’t think it’s really linked to lunch however much some people judge those who have to move at non-ideal points.

Yes completely concur with you 🫂
This is horrendously unfair & unkind
💚😢💚

Ok, well if he’s year 11 then interventions do happen.

it’s usually for kids that are pretty seriously off track to basically make them do some work. He can probably take his packed lunch and eat it there that’s what both teachers and kids did at our school.

at my most recent school the interventions were pretty fierce. We got good results but it was made very clear to the kids that if they didn’t put the work in and get the grades that they should be doing that they’d be working at lunchtimes instead.

most of them got the message pretty quickly to be fair, but some took longer than others.

They cant deny children food. In any other scenario that would be child abuse. Why is it acceptable in a school?

I’ve got a bright, on the ball, independent kid and I’ve been thinking about having him do online school from year 7-9 and then straight into college at 14. Mainly because I don’t feel the local secondary schools (all academies) are healthy at all. I have worked with victims of domestic abuse and coercive control. Many of the tactics seem scarily similar.

Tbf on reflection it’s why I’m asking and holding back just communicating. Finding a school for the end of year 10 was hell. It was a shut down for many, presumably thinking he’s been excluded/ in a gang/ social issues/ behaviour needs/ SEN. Schools didn’t reply. Apparently most were full, some never ever replied at all.
I ended up contacting academy schools with their own admissions processes and with strong mock grades and a good report I got a reply and went from there.
Genuinely, he’s just a fairly typical, quite bright (but not the top) child. His mocks would already meet targets form KS2, just ticks along.
You end up feeling so grateful he’s in anywhere, I’m not out to nitpick.

Sounds absolutely awful. I’d complain and raise basic human rights reminders. A detention is fine - depriving of food and basic human needs is not. Could you raise this with the local authority?