Not able to eat at school? Punitive systems

[RainbowDaffodil]

My son has started at a new secondary school. Firstly, I have no issue with detentions and I welcome interventions… but surely all lunchtime is madness?

He was late for example yesterday (bus, traffic -perfect storm. He’s usually very early), punctuality detention is lunchtime 1.25 to 2.05. Lunchtime is 1.25 to 2.15 but the canteen isn’t functioning for the last five min of lunch, which is when he’d get there.

The intervention he’s given in two subjects is the same time two lunchtimes a week. 1.25 to 2.05. I got him to say to the teachers he wanted to go, but he needs to eat. They shrugged and said he’s down for interventions and has to go. No solution or dialogue.

The school day is full, 8.15-3.15. 15 min break at 11:20. Some days they also have expectations for after school work too.

Is this in anyway remotely normal nowadays? My son is a robust kinda kid, friends and confident, but he’s starting to look run down. I get this as I’d be run down! He used to eat me out of house and home but lately he’s going 8-4 without food a few days a week, even with a packed lunch it’s been eaten after school. It’s partly getting time and partly the access to toilets not been there, they seem to manage it restricting drink and food.

He works hard, likes teachers but from my view it’s a punitive system of constant directed time, little access to food or toilets and a behaviour point system where getting one positive point in six weeks is a feat but sitting on a pen and snapping it can land you in detention for not being properly equipped (silly mistake, put his biro in a pocket and sat down). Another behaviour point was for being slow with work-I helped him to understand it at home, he was just stuck and didn’t get a new concept. No negative points are for rudeness/ disruption or any active actions but it’s so easy to get them it feels.

Communication is on the app and all one way. Recently I noticed he had some unauthorised absences so I emailed to ask if he was truanting or it was an error. No reply, but they disappeared on the app. I contacted them too at the start, he wasn’t given an IT account when he started and all the homework is online. He asked lots of times and I emailed but it was weeks of detentions for not doing homework while he couldn’t access the system.

It feels nuts!

I would focus on the first point. He absolutely needs time to eat, even if he’s received a ridiculous detention. You are absolutely within your rights to push that with the school.

Unfortunately, I’m not sure you’ll get far on the second point. Some genius in school leadership has decided that the school should be phone-free, but also, everything is communicated by an app that none of the students can access!? Absolutely batshit.
However, you probably won’t get far with changing anything here.

Focus on the lunchtimes, and if the school is useless even on this basic issue, then you’re going to have to find a solution of a handheld lunch that can be quickly eaten anywhere. E.g. sausage roll, small roll with ham and cheese etc. He could then have a proper ‘meal’ after school perhaps, late afternoon.

It sucks that you don’t have other school options, but you just have to work with what you’ve got. Your son sounds amazing and very resilient, like pp have said.

This website breaks down government rules on school behaviour policy: https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/discipline-within-school/

It clearly states:
‘With lunchtime detentions, staff should allow reasonable time for the pupil to eat, drink and use the toilet. School staff should not issue a detention where there is any reasonable concern that doing so would compromise a pupil's safety.’

I teach secondary & that sounds very intense. No wonder teenagers are stressed out! He should have 10 mins to grab lunch. He needs time to eat & use the toilet. I wouldn’t agree to the lunch interventions. The detention for not having a pen seems OTT. I would personally just lend a pen in that situation. I would send another email & raise these concerns. He can’t be the only one in this situation?

Preface: I haven't read the whole thread but .. Keep contacting and demand meetings; this is not ok at any school (academy, hahaha, or otherwise)

Any penalties for being late to tutor/lesson 1 are down to late buses so I'd demand that those penalties be overturned (should not have been given!) and that the school look at their busing/transport systems. Penalising pupils for using transport is wrong.

At my DDs' school, the bus for our village went through a period of several years when it was unreliable. Now that they have sorted that (buy assigning it to a specific DH) it's a non-issue but during the time it was a shambles.

Do contact urgenly his tutor/form teacher and demand (don't just ask) for intervention so that he can eat during the day. Denying food/water/loo breaks is inhumane. There are laws for water/loo breaks for workers ...

Its not actually right he got a detention for being late. It was beyond his control.
My daughter got a detention for being late, even after I phoned them and told them she woukd be late because my dads car had broken down on the way to take her to school. I told them she would not be serving the detention.

In my son’s school the detention is not the same day which I think is better. It means the parents get a message that their child will have lunchtime detection in two days time. The child / parent can be more prepared (eg child get lunch / snack at break or parent send packed lunch etc).

Sounds less like a time to eat thing and more of a he can’t access a toilet often enough so he restricts his intake? A packed lunch he’d be able to eat some in ten minute break and ten minutes at end of detention so if he’s not, it’s a choice. The no access to toilet would really annoy me. As an ex teacher the toilets were a constant source of frustration as a few would just hang out there, bully others, mess them up and flood sinks etc so all toilets were locked during lessons and then no way can every child use them during short break periods. Infuriating

As a parent and teacher I've found the whole new academy system very unfair. In the old days we would reluctantly give a lunch time detention as it was immediate, for 15 mins within an hour so they had plenty of time to eat and go to the loo.

As teachers we had to do these ourselves in our classrooms so also ate into our lunchtime, excuse the pun!

Lunchtimes are awful in new built academies, especially those with half hour break, though many do rotated times. So many students crammed into queues, scoff, no time for fresh air, play a game of footie, queue for the toilets etc.

I do genuinely feel for those who haven't had chance for a toilet trip (yes in some cases it's because they've been doing their make up and chatting) so I let them go, one at a time, after a wait a bit please. You can tell when it's genuine. For us it's so hard when you haven't had chance to go, choice of eat and have a drink or toilet! Trying to cram it all in when in duty is a fine tooth movement lol 😆

Academy schools are run like little prisons. They're not about education but control and teaching the masses to be good workers for their masters. They are awful. Private schools treat their pupils with far more respect. It disgusts me.

I guess for me it feels like I’ve spent 15.5 years raising a decent balanced child, within healthy parameters for things. In three months he has unhealthy eating habits, has lost interest in praise and no longer revises or engages in subjects. Looks a bit dead, does necessary tasks. In September he was eager to get reward points, now he sees it as a random system he doesn’t try in. Hasn’t read a book in months. I’m not blind to the wider system needing to work and when weighing up procedures it can never be perfect for all… but it just all seems sad.
with home school, financially 8/9 private school entries are realistic. It would limit him. He should get 6+ in all in school, which will give him access to next steps that he wants to do.
I just don’t get it, I’m willing to sit on some points for the sake of a year and accessing exams. I just wish it had more balance

Yes it sounds insane. Do the people setting this think of the affect on the child, his teacher and his classmates durinv the after lunch class/classes? Seems the biggest punishment might be to the teacher. It should be changed but in the meantime prepare am emergency kit for his bag (it is a good idea anyway) and see if you can find workrounds for the things causing delays. When he has been on-time for a while approach the school board. I am pretty sure if the punishment was phased ad "because you were late you are not allowed lunch" it would be illegal and that is basically what they are saying.

No. Just some emergency rations. Muesli bars, dried fruit, nuts if allowed and a sealed drink.

That sounds awful. :(
One easy fix for the future. Make sure he’s got spare pens in his bag. It’s always handy to have spares.
Hoping you can help him resolve all the other issues. It sounds grim.

@Chinsupmeloves I also allow students to use the toilet. There’s a few repeat offenders who I now say no to as it’s every lesson & likely they are just trying to get out of the lesson.

Also if I keep a student back I will do 5-10 mins max as we only have 35 mins lunch & it’s not possible to eat & use loo in 20 mins. Queue for lunch is extremely long.

It sounds like a horrible atmosphere for your DS.

Our current secondary does lunch detentions. DS had one or two when he was there, but he could take food in with him and they even offered him a biscuit - for them lunchtime detentions are a first offence type sanction, to have a chat and stop bad behaviour. His previous secondary only did after school for 60 or 90 mins, which was much worse as it would be dark and empty if he walked home so I had to pick him up and leave work early.
I would speak to them about not eating, surely any punishment they give shouldn't be impacting their health.

I think the toilet rules are okay at my DDs new secondary, she has very heavy periods and I'm hoping they let them go if they need to. DSs previous school didn't let them go at all and locked them (overall it seemed a very punitive place). I still remember how bad I felt in Year 7, when a teacher wouldn't let me go to the toilet and I had an accident in the classroom.

Eating lunch separate from other children yes, not having it unreasonable.

I expect that a contributor to the unreasonable policy has been other parents who believe that their child should never have any sanction/punishment and should be exempt. I am sure we can all think of examples.

Focus on any complaint to the school being about not being able to have lunch.

I think for ‘bad behaviour’ is quite a key point.
I’d certainly support sanctions for bad behaviour/ negative attitude.
It seems mad when detention each lunchtime (all lunch) could be used as a way of easily identifying who gets which bus. TfL service gets disrupted and you literally get 30-40 kids together. If it was late and missing lessons, catch up learning I see the sense too. I’m talking gate locked at 8.40, child waved to go round to the office by the person closing the gate level of lateness. Physically arriving in a form room at roughly the same time and being simply noted by the office on the late list. It’s just
a bit tiring. I’ve gone from being a teacher / parent who’s always been massively supportive of school to that parent without the energy for it all too. I guess I’m as disaffected. I know if I had the same level of punishments at work I’d be in the same position as an adult as he is, however much I tried to not ever be 1 min late/ break a pen etc

Sorry, but this doesn't fit with my experience as a teacher.

If they're late at 8.40, that must mean the other children have already arrived on time. You then go on to say that both the children who are late and the children who arrive on time get to their tutor / form room together. Really?

Here's the way it actually works from several years of experience:
Kids start coming in at 8.25 for registration.
Registration bell goes at 8.30.
Kids who are late have to go through the attendance office otherwise their arrival won't be registered. This is a safeguarding issue. Everyone, including the parents, needs to know where the kids are - i.e. who is and isn't in the building.

You say the above system is 'tiring' and seem to be suggesting that a better procedure would be to keep the gate open and let anyone wander in completely unmonitored (because those teachers who've been on duty before school starts will now be inside actually teaching), don't bother with getting the lates to enter through attendance so they get registered, instead trust they'll go straight to their form rooms and not mill about with no one knowing they're on site, alternatively, those who do arrive in form can be registered by their tutor repeatedly logging on to the system, updating the register, saving and sending - which is really disruptive.

It sounds as if your DS is struggling joining a new school when most students have been there for the past four years. There's bound to be missing bits of information. You mention sending several emails and messages. Perhaps arranging a meeting with his HoY could iron things out. Teachers can find it difficult to respond when we're already under so much pressure and working stupidly long hours. As a teacher yourself, you'll know this.

However, there is a sense in your posts that you don't really like the policies of the school. It all seems reasonable:
He sat down and broke his pen in his pocket (not 'My pen exploded, Miss') - where is his pencil case? Is the expectation children will use pencil cases?
He didn't do his homework - because he couldn't log on, but did he try to sort this out before or after it was due?
He was late - but that wasn't his fault.
He needs to use his mobile to check in - even if it is against the school rules.

All of the above cause disruption to other learners, and the mobile is a safeguarding issue.

Happy to explain. I’ve also taught and it’s different to my experiences.
The children all wait out until 8.40, the gate is locked and the doors open at this time. The site is large and an L shape, Yr 11 are at the far point of the L. If you walk the outside route it’s round the building. The office is adjacent to the gate and exiting at the rear of this takes you to the inside door of the L. Basically you can be 2-3 min late and save walking the slower busier route with the crowd round the path on the external side of the L. The office sign in for late is electronic, takes seconds to fill in and sign in. You can, if just late, actually not be the last to form. The electronic register will have the late entry though when you tap in.

other points
-yes has a pencil case, in a rush put pen in pocket. Sat on it. Learnt not to do that but as it’s a one off and his pocket was full of shards when I washed it, it seems believable. Obviously if it was repeated I’d be cynical. It’s as a one off within the scope of things I can recognise happening to me, last week at work a split a glass of water on meeting papers. Stuff as a one off happens.
-log in for homework: I made him ask his teacher daily and report back. I sent two messages on the app, one to his head of year and one to the main admin email to support him getting a log in. No emails or messages were responded other that ‘we have passed your message to the IT department. I believe we made a fair effort to be proactive.

I think that’s enough detail, presumptions can be made always- but I believe I’ve been factual fair and I have no urge really to be getting involved beyond what I need to- as I said, he’s the middle of 5.

Whilst I am a teacher as you said, I know every item individually can be picked apart and explained. The overall view to me though seems unbalanced when viewed as a whole experience. It’s having to find an explanation or presumption for a lot of things, his overall state. It’s also having to presume the school, despite being in a fairly affluent pocket locally, is unlucky year on year with a lower achieving and naughtier cohort that impacts their results and suspensions in the local context. I’d also have to presume they are unfairly targeted compared to other local schools by residents on social media who comment on them more than on other schools.

I think overall he’s settled well. Has instant friends, sees them at weekends. Joined a sports club they go to. Homework I’ve seen has good comments, the mocks informally reported are good- waiting for formal reporting but had a few verbally back ranging from a grade 5 to 7. Lessons and individual teachers sound very good, he’s come home and commented on them regularly. I’m not panicking he’s not able to settle, I’m just saying it feels like unnecessary and stressful layers of angst for a kid with a good attitude. Why make things grim? I’m a firm believer in holistic education of the whole child as a teacher. It’s not about one incident, stuff happens, but there’s a lack of care in punitive systems, with postive behaviour points being dis-used, and not being interested in if children can eat on numerous occasions.
I picked him up for the orthodontist one day and saw the ‘level 3’ detention emptying- it was a substantial number I saw (not including him, he’s never had that level)

At our previous school, where they only did 60 or 90 min after school detentions, I would pick him up and no lie that there must have been 100 kids coming out of detention. The reasons they would give for detention just seemed all wrong - he was given two detentions one day (both 60 mins), they were for walking in a corridor to and from the SEN department, which he was encouraged to use for help (he has autism) and had a learning passport, but they would punish him for going. He's now in eotas thankfully, my faith in schools has all gone. My DDs school seems to have very few kids in detention but a much better behaviour level, so clearly punishing hundreds of kids at the previous school isn't actually resolving anything.

Surely this is illegal. They're denying him food. It's abuse.

If I recall correctly, we were able to eat during lunchtime detentions. The monitoring teachers would require us to be silent. They'd generally tell us to do homework/revision/reading (presumably a distraction because it was mostly the ADHD kids).

Definitely weren't allowed to eat during lessons - it's what breaks and lunchtime is for. Ditto for the toilet, but this was at the teachers' discretion. Probably had to wait until a pause in teaching and we were set a task. Seems fair IMO.

If you want to be absolutely certain, ask his head of year or someone for total clarity on whether or not they're allowed to eat. I bet there's an opportunity to buy some kind of cold food at their break, or even during those last minutes of lunch. Best wishes 👍

They (HTT or rather some poor teacher who has been forced to do HTT’s dirty work) will say that the child should have got food at break or that they “shouldn’t have misbehaved in the first place.” HTT are quite happy that teachers go without food, drink and loo breaks, so why should they care about kids? Remember, everything is “nonnegotiable” in schools which basically is a bully’s charter. Trust me on this, I have just retired after 25 years in teaching/middle management. Yes, kids (and parents) can drive you potty with the usual punctuality, loo requests, dog ate my homework sort of stuff but a teacher, given a reasonable workload and some autonomy, can deal with that with a short detention or a “word” or contacting home if no improvement. These apps are just annoying and more time consuming than just dealing with low level organisation and behaviour issues as one human being to another. These apps are often developed by ex teachers who couldn’t hack it in the classroom. They are a total waste of money and time. When schools say they are underfunded, it’s because they are wasting all their money on these stupid apps, as well as expensive outside speakers (more people who couldn’t hack it in the classroom) and paying people to redesign logos and pump out publicity on social media. All these apps do is confuse parents, annoy kids and frustrate teachers - remember, they are mainly there for HTT to spy on teachers to see if they’re putting their quota of “sanctions” in and setting homework. It’s called “accountability” but it’s really about not treating teachers as professionals and about belittling parents’ ability to manage their young people’s educational needs. It’s creating a warlike atmosphere between schools and families. And don’t get me started on email misuse! I don’t know what the answer is for parents - you’ll be marked down as PPP (piss poor parenting) if you don’t spend your life reading the updates and “supporting the school” by agreeing your kids have to lose social time, do 60 or 90 minutes after school or sit in isolation for the day. What I do know is that there is currently an abuse of power going on.

Please remember that teachers and support staff are bullied by HTT in many schools.