to be fed up of hearing 'I've worked hard for my money'

[newbluesofa]

Lots of chat on MN recently about taxes on high earners. So heard lots of 'we have this money because we work bloody hard for it' and honestly I'm sick of it and think the people who say it are selfish.

Nurses work incredibly hard, long shifts, difficult job. Carers provide absolutely essential service, again shift work, difficult hours, difficult job. Teachers provide essential work, I know multiple teachers and they all devote evenings, weekends, school holidays to the detriment of their own families. All of these jobs also have huge emotional tolls. So 'I've worked hard for my money' means nothing to me, because a lot of people work a lot harder for a lot less.

Also risk is key - many careers like nursing and teaching are important but also ‘safe’. People choose them for the safety, the life long status, the pensions. You don’t get these things in more risky (and well paid) career paths

I agree with this.The value of labour isn't all about how much effort or time someone devotes to something. It's about scarcity and skill.

The most obvious example is tradespeople that will charge an arm and a leg for a relatively quick job that doesn't seem massively labour intensive. You are paying though for the years they have spent learning the trade and building up their expertise so that they are in a position to do the job and you aren't. That's just how life works. If the skill and experience were that common then you would find someone that would do it cheaper. The fact you can't tells you all you need to know about the scarcity of their skills.

The same goes with doctors versus nurses and why one is paid more than the other. It is much harder to get into medical school in the first place and you need much better grades, you then need to spend more years to become qualified and will ultimately hold a lot more responsibility. This doesn't mean the nurse works less hard than the doctor from an effort perspective but realistically many more of us could be successful nurses than doctors.

There are also more obvious examples where actually you do get paid more for working harder. You mentioned teaching in your OP and of course many headteachers are higher earners but they often have significantly more responsibility and stress than teachers. They tend to work much longer hours so are putting in more effort and should be rewarded for this. Even heads of departments will be doing more generally than non heads. Where is the incentive for anyone to do anything but the easiest option if we can't acknowledge as a society that scarcity, responsibility and skill are worth paying for and that sometimes actually you do have to work harder in order to get paid more and the extra money isn't just down to luck or chance?

My DH is self employed. He’s often at sea in all weathers by himself for 12-15 hours at a time. Sometimes for very little reward. I genuinely don’t know many people who work as hard or risk as much. I have massive respect for him.

However it pisses me off when he dismisses the work of others as easy because of this. He does this to me when we argue. I feel like I’ve worked hard as my brain hurts and it’s been stressful. I have no comeback and I have to let him rant.

@Marshmallow4545i agree with you! My partner does a trade but it’s one many people wouldn’t want to do, it’s very physically demanding and necessary- hence it’s paid very well!

@mellongoosei agree, I’m academic and my partner has a physical job. But he cannot sit at a computer all day and ‘think’ he would go insane. It’s a different kind of ‘hard’ and different people are more suitable for each kind. They are so different it can be difficult to even understand each others experiences!

Agree with you.

my job is desk based, but high pressure and requires constant knowledge update. I was working till midnight last night trying to read through several thousand pages of documentation for an opportunity we are going for and I was discussing it with the CEO at 6.30am today. Putting together project plans, identifying areas where we’ll need to make significant organisational or technical changes etc None of it is physically laborious but the decisions I make will impact on hundreds of staff members, could be the difference between winning or losing £15mill worth of revenue for the organisation, will determine whether a year from now we are hiring more people and offering promotions or making large numbers of people redundant.

It is hard work and it does affect other people’s lives, it is just not ‘hard’ in the same way that other jobs are hard.

Sounds to me you don't understand how they have their wealth and that you can't magically abolish people having more than a billion

Oh dear a billionaire investing in companies is a bad thing now. Guess technological innovation is a bad thing? Guess employing others is a bad thing?

We already pay the most tax thank you very much. I completely understand temporary support for those suffering serious hardship that's just come out the blue. But how about those on the bottom learn to end up being self sufficient after a while? They might need temporary support, but don't rely on us forever.

Globally 2/3 of billionaires are self made.

I have never once said you are ‘lucky’. Never used the word. I hear you about the choices you’ve made to get yourself where you are but my point continues to be - these choices, the sacrifices as so many describe them, are not limited to people on high incomes. They are the same as those made by people on median incomes. I was asking what, specifically, are the sorts of sacrifices made by people on high incomes when they use that phrase.

Well, if you are in a job where you work very hard for little reward and would prefer a larger reward, you have two choices: get a better paid job, or join a Union and fight for better pay.

One person’s view of working hard might be to run themselves ragged for a low wage, while another’s might be that they have pushed themselves out of their comfort zone to go for a higher paid job. Neither are wrong.

The important thing is to respect that lower paid jobs are sometimes essential to many, while higher paid jobs are mainly essential to only a few, and not to complain that it’s unfair for someone who seemingly works less hard than you in your low-paid job is earning more - you could also have successfully applied for that higher-paid job, too, but you chose to work in the NHS, in Teaching or for a Care Company, after all!

Hard work is synonym for risk taking, stepping out of your comfort zone, doing things others are too risk averse, sometimes lazy to try.

Hard work does not deserve high pay. Anyone can work hard, though millions on benefits choose not to work at all or only time hours to game the system.

Being a risk taker to start your own enterprise, saying yes to opportunities at work which come with risk or consistently striving to grow your skills and income deserves high pay.

Everyone knows this. Not sure why people engage in faux naivety and say ‘oh but low paid people work hard too’. Yes but they’re not doing anything that millions of other wouldn’t or couldn’t do. Being a nurse, as respectable as it is, isn’t as difficult as staying out in business not knowing how it’s going to turn out, facing failure and possibly succeeding through sheer tenacity. If you own the failure, you should be rewarded for success. it’s not even as difficult as being a consultant or a surgeon. Thats why we have fewer succeeding at these high paid professions and should be paid more because, yes, they are more valuable. Without their contribution, nurses couldn’t be paid.

Low paid jobs don’t possess irreplaceable skills or traits. That’s not an insult, it’s just a fact.

A supporter of Reform? Says it all really.

I noticed you mentioned earlier your household income is £150k.

If that’s true, you do not pay “the most tax.”

Exactly, those on the bottom also have a responsibility to be as self sufficient as possible and try their best.

I think a good analogy is a school exam. Some people will breeze through the exam and gain a good grade because they are naturally gifted but they will be the minority and not the norm. Most will have to work hard to do well and some will have to work very hard indeed to do well. Of course there will be those at the bottom that have tried their best and failed but these will very much be in the minority too. Most simply haven't applied themselves as they should have and put in less time and effort revising than those that have managed to get a good grade. There will be other factors at play like home environment, deprivation, private schooling etc of course but still this doesn't take away from the fact that lots of the individuals at the bottom simply have not tried as hard as their peers.

How many marks would you suggest that the top performing students should give to the bottom performing students to even out any perceived advantage?

That's not an argument.

It's top 2%. I think they can call that "the most".

Bit of a weird example. Schools would put interventions in place for many of the students you mention.

That intervention is state funded.

There’s someone out there pays more. The woman who someone knows who earns £400k, she’s further up the “most” tree.

Perhaps she’ll turn up to humble brag!

@GentleOlive ,

So, you come from a wealthy family where maybe Mum’s a City lawyer and Dad is in corporate finance.

You are sent to good private schools and, being reasonably bright (but far from brilliant), you get decent A levels and to a solid uni where you get a 2/1 or a 1st (who doesn’t with grade inflation?). Along the way you have been helped into a couple of internships at lawyers and investment banks.

And, in turn, you enter the City and climb up the ladder to an ED (say) on £250k per annum. Nothing extraordinary in that environment and your main skills are an ability to blend in and make connections.

And, if you get sacked, you will never really be in trouble as you are always welcome back at home by your supporting parents, as well as maybe having money in trust.

Where is the risk taking or entrepreneurship?

I just don’t really buy your argument.

Yes, but you can access government support if you are out of work or in a low paid job and want to upskill.