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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

If my tenant has negotiated a lower rent because she is a single mum of 2 she should not move in her entire extended family?

344 replies

QuintessentialShadows · 08/06/2008 21:05

She negotiated her rent down, as she was just her and her two kids. Ideal quiet tenant, long term let.

So, a whole gang of people surprised my dh at the house when he went to London to have a final look prior to tenant moving in.

My other neighbour down the road got talking to them ( same ethnicity) and they said they were ALL moving in. Mum and her two children, her husband, her brother, her mum and her dad.... Only mum is named on the contract and the contract stays that nobody else can live there aside from named tenant.

Where do I stand? Can I demand higher rent bearing in mind wear and tear of appliances etc? With three working grown ups living there, surely they can afford it?

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 09/06/2008 16:54

how is she claiming to be a single parent if she has a husband?

possession in 9/10 of the law.

get a solicitor.

it'll cost you less in the long run, trust me.

Original poster
QuintessentialShadows · 09/06/2008 17:55

Well, my hot swanky solicitor has not phoned me back.

Neither has the estate agent, and tbh, I dont want to talk to him until I have spoken to the lawyer.

OP posts:
bossybritches · 09/06/2008 20:01

Well they can't get in till you do can they? is it just your DH & you with the keys?

if the agents have some make sure you email them they are NOT to hand them over in any circs until they get written confirmation from you.

Mumsnut · 09/06/2008 20:10

Re Banham locks:

  • there might be something in the tenancy agreement about how many sets of keys should be made available (ie, more than one);
  • and tenant might start leaving them under the doormat if more than one person is living there.

Do you need a local spy? I'm sure there must be a mumsnetter nearby ...

WideWebWitch · 09/06/2008 20:13

Don't let her move in. It will 100% not be worth it for her to take action against you BEFORE she's moved in, once she's in, you've had it, you'll have to go to great lengths to evict her.

Tell Foxtons you're not prepared to argue, you've changed your mind and you don't want her as a tenant. Fuck the contract, quite frankly.

WideWebWitch · 09/06/2008 20:15

It's YOUR house. You don't HAVE to let it to someone just because you've signed a contract. Because the only way they can make you is to take you to court and really, they're not going to do that. You could lie and say you've got to move back in if you really don't want a fight about it.

SSSandy2 · 09/06/2008 20:20

Hmm was wondering about that myself. Does it make any difference to the contract status if you claim you or your immediate family need the house for residential purposes? I think the agents are being quite unhelpful tbh

stuffedaubergine · 09/06/2008 20:31

I would say I'm with WWW as a last resort. But it would mean you'd lose your money with Foxtons, and would have to pay back the first month's rent on top of that. Not satisfactory.

So I would continue with the legal route. Letters need to be fired off very quickly to Foxtons I think. Good luck tonight, I'm sure it's all you're thinking about.

DiscoDizzy · 09/06/2008 20:36

Sorry, posted on 1st page and only read last couple of pages. Have you or your agents (on your behalf) and your tenant signed the agreement? If you've all signed then i'm sure you are bound to the tenancy agreement.

Original poster
QuintessentialShadows · 09/06/2008 20:46

We have all signed. And I have signed a landlord agreement with foxtons. By breaking the contract I may be liable to house the tenant (and her dependants which turns out to be her parents and brother and husband too) until she has found accomodation.

I cant instruct Foxtons to not hand over the keys, they have to abide by their code of practice, and they have to look after the interest of the tenant too, who at this point in time have done nothing wront. We have no proof she intends to move other people in. She says she isnt. And, having scrutinezed the contract, it says very early on that she is entitled to enjoy the property with her immediate family. I took that to be husband and kids, but legally this is mother father, brohter, inlaws, etc. The later paragraphs that states no other than the tenant can live in the property does not relate to immediate family.

By breaking the contract, I may be liable to pay her legal costs should she sue me. My dh and my neighbour will have to go to court witness, as there will be a court case. It is complicated.

I have a spy already (but thanks for the thought), my neighbour.

OP posts:
Original poster
QuintessentialShadows · 09/06/2008 20:47

so, in short, we are screwed.

But again, they may not stay long when they realize the mental health of her nearest neighbour....

OP posts:
DiscoDizzy · 09/06/2008 20:50

Is it for a 6 month tenancy? It looks as though you will have to let her have the keys. There is a chance that she isn't moving all and sundry in to move in with her. She may turn out to be a model tenant in which case great. If not then you will need to give her 2 months (i think) notice to quit as soon as you are legally able to.

stuffedaubergine · 09/06/2008 20:50

Oh bugger. This is from the lawyer?

What's the break clause?

Can you be uncooperative about the things she wants changed in the house?

If you find they are contributing to the rent, I believe that's sub-letting which would be a breach of contract. But how on earth would anyone find that out.

Re keys: I still think you only have to give one set. If she insists on a spare can they be with your neighbour. Are Foxtons managing the property?

Original poster
QuintessentialShadows · 09/06/2008 20:58

Foxtons are managing the property. Foxtons has asked for two sets, one for them and one for the tenant I think.

The break clauses are pretty standard, non-payment of rent, if the property is left unoccupied for more than 21 days, etc. Nothing there I can grasp at.

The good news is, as it says on the contract that her an immediate family can enjoy the property, it still means that SHE and THEY will be held responsible for rent even if she has left.
(If we name any more adults on the tenancy agreement, it will also cover their intermediate family.) Also, because of all the mucking about with furniture and the contract we have signed states differerent to reality, we need to make a new contract, Agency is going to add a clause about ANY other adult living in the property (whether family or not) should be named on the contract, otherwise will be living there illegally, if there should be a problem.

When I spoke to her former letting agency cleverly asking if there had been any complaints about noise from so many people, they said that the only paeople living at the property was she and her husband and their kids. SO I dont know what the story here is.

OP posts:
DiscoDizzy · 09/06/2008 21:02

There must be a length of term for the tenancy though?

Original poster
QuintessentialShadows · 09/06/2008 21:09

18 months. She wanted 3 years. We agreed to 18. We plan to sell the house in 2 years time, when the market has recovered slightly. We did not modernise or refurbish prior to them moving in, planning to do it after.

OP posts:
DiscoDizzy · 09/06/2008 21:11

Despite the length of term being 18 months i'm sure in the agreements we used to have that there was a clause that said that after the initial 6 month term the tenant could give the landlord 1 month notice to quit and the landlords could give the tenant 2 months notice.

BabiesEverywhere · 09/06/2008 21:19

What about rent increases? Are they built into the contract already or could you increase the rent to force them out that way ?

stuffedaubergine · 09/06/2008 21:21

Quint there is some good news there. Is it really 18 months without a break? That's what I meant by break clause really, just how long do you have to wait before you can give them notice.

Good news about the keys, new tenancy agreement, and that they are all liable for rent. I'm not sure how the other agency would know how many people were really living there rather than legally living there.

However it does all seem more positive if you have to go ahead. I suppose it would mean more from you on the phone during the tenancy, making sure Foxtons are doing the job etc. But it might not be worst case scenario.

stuffedaubergine · 09/06/2008 21:24

She could turn out to be a reasonable tenant, especially if it's made clear to her that all parties will be pursued for rent and are liable in case of default.

And the one other thing is: that although you have lowered the rent, a void is even more expensive. Do you feel at all positive about things?

Have you told her you're refurbishing afterwards by the way -- as she could use that as an excuse not to pay for any damage.

stuffedaubergine · 09/06/2008 21:25

Also, would your swanky lawyer be able to run his/her eyes over the new tenancy agreement before you sign.

Sorry to be a busybody.

expatinscotland · 09/06/2008 21:28

and her dependants which turns out to be her parents and brother and husband too) until she has found accomodation.

Adults are not dependents unless they are mentally or otherwise incompetent.

Therefore, she is lying. You must house her and her children, not her, her husband (I'm still not getting how she negotiated this lower rent for being single and is not), parents and brother.

DiscoDizzy · 09/06/2008 21:30

She can't use the fact that as refurbishment will take place as an excuse not to pay for potential damage as it will state in the tenant part of the agreement to make good any damage. She will be liable and as the agents have the deposit there's not much she can do about that. I think the poster should look more positively and be a little more optimistic and see how her tenants works out. There is a risk with any tenant, whether it be someone who is on council benefit or someone with a massive stash of money. I've experienced really bad tenants who've not paid rent, caused damage etc and most were from people who to look at you would never ever expect it.

clam · 09/06/2008 21:31

well, I've just had a chat to my sister who works in estate lettings (although fairly new to the game) and she was very dubious about this whole foxtons stance. For a start, when you say you've signed the agreement, do you mean the agents' terms and conditions? Because that is actioning the agent to find you a tenant and agreeing their % cut etc.. but does not commit you to any specific tenant. Also, and I remember this from when we rented a while back, you don't sign the actual tenancy agreement until moving-in day, when the keys are handed over. DSIS reckons you can change your mind up til that point, although you may be liable for admin fees and holding deposit etc.. Whatever, I would think you MUST get independent advice on this one, because she said of course the agent wants it to go ahead for their cut, and there are some unscrupulous ones about. Seems odd what they said about looking after the interests of the tenant...... I thought their dirst priority was to you, the landlord. Don't be fobbed off by this. GET FURTHER ADVICE. QUICK!

expatinscotland · 09/06/2008 21:33

Our tenancy agreement was handled through a solicitor, so I'm not sure how it works if you go through a letting agent, but on our last tenancy we didn't actually sign until move in day, when money and keys were also handed over.