That Boris Johnson and Matt Hancock should be prosecuted for the avoidable Covid deaths

[LlynTegid]

The part 2 report of the Covid inquiry finds that at least 20,000 deaths were avoidable, had restrictions come in a week earlier.

Various other findings confirming the failures of Mr Johnson and Mr Hancock.

I think they should face criminal charges, such as corporate manslaughter given government is an employer. AIBU

Were they? The booze suitcase, the karaoke machine, the pools of vomit the cleaners reported were all blown out of proportion when people were being arrested for having a socially distanced walk with a mate drinking a take away coffee?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/07/coronavirus-report-warned-of-impact-on-uk-four-years-before-pandemic

There's also this.....

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18515726.covid-19-boris-johnson-binned-pandemic-team-months-crisis/

And this.

One of our stops on the walk home from school was at a house where two elderly ladies kept a crocodile, an alligator and a boa constrictor. We played with them all. Grandma was a bit horrified.....

Wasn’t there a big football match right before they locked down? I always got the impression they were waiting for that to be done with. That and Mother’s Day too, which no doubt families visiting each other would’ve had a huge impact.

And the Cheltenham Festival was allowed to happen too.

This. I would be hung drawn and quartered and treated like a leper if I was honest on here about how often I wash my hands. But I’m so, so rarely ill and was entirely symptomless for covid. I do wonder where our hygiene obsession has got us.

But this thread has blown my mind as everything I’ve read on MN since about 2021 has been centred on how horrific lockdown was, the untold damage it has done to generations of people such that I had thought the consensus was we would never lockdown again in our lifetimes as there would be widespread dissent as everyone has seen it as more harmful than beneficial. And that camp of people vs this camp of people is exactly why the government couldn’t win no matter what they did. Maybe 23,000 unnecessary deaths, but have they counted the detrimental impact of an extra week of lockdown on mental health and those with other illnesses that ultimately died as a result.

The best answer would have been not needing to lockdown at all, and therefore the next best answer was to lockdown only when absolutely necessary.

And I’m someone who LOVED lockdown and would voluntarily sign up for it again tomorrow.

Liverpool v Athletico Madrid with loads of away fans pouring into the country.

I say, lock them up and throw away the key. I was upset for a long time that Tim Brook-Taylor was amongst those who died from Covid.

YANBU @LlynTegid.

PM Johnson viewed the emergence of Covid as a trifle to be used in one of his Culture Wars. His planning discussions prioritised sport and leisure over the safety of children and women. The Johnson government broke the very rules they made. When people were dying alone, suffering grief, alone, they were partying so hard that 10 Downing St was the most fined address in the UK for government made Covid Rules breaches.

At the very time we needed intelligence and leadership we got Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock, Dominic Cummings etc having a laugh and making big bucks.

They partied and laughed while people died due to their incompetence and lies.

Thank you, ilovesooty ... even before this thread I'd been wracking my brains as to who the teams involved were, and now you've answered it

Why. Explain your reasoning. Please.

Those 23,000 would have died anyway, but later.

The countries which had lower death rates at the start had higher death rates later on - and vice versa.

And many people died WITH COVID, not of it. And although the excess deaths was significantly higher, that was also because the NHS closed down to anyone who didn't have covid. I wonder how many people died of other things needlessly. Also dentists, I wonder how many people died of sepsis due to untreated tooth abscesses.

I agree there were massive mistakes but it wasn't locking down too late (or not hard enough as a lot of people were screaming for on here - desperate for the Spanish model of not being allowed to go more than 400m from home).

Those 23,000 would have died anyway, but later.

No shit, Sherlock. The only certainty any of us have in life is that we’re going to die. 🙄

What MASSIVE mistakes were those - you didn't elaborate on that?

Age and obesity rate. Japan didn’t lock down and was an outlier. They also have a very low rate of obesity.

Apart from learning that lockdowns are damaging, I hope that was recognised in this report, what is the outcome?

If it’s lockdown a week earlier which is questionable given people were behaving differently already, then how can that be applied to another virus?

It might not need the same response.

I think that had restrictions started a week or two earlier, the period of them could have been shorter, and in particular some level of in person schooling could have resumed before the summer holidays. The autumn November restrictions would have been much easier to bear had they been in October when there is daylight until 6pm or so.

Some of the restrictions were also lifted in the wrong order- pubs before schools as an example. As for funerals, not even allowing people to visit a church beforehand to fill past the coffin was unforgivable.

This totally sums it up for me. I’ve no liking for either of them but we were in totally new territory and a no-win situation.

That doesn’t excuse the “rule breaking” and other such fuckery they got up to but I don’t think anyone should be prosecuted over what was a completely unknown situation.

Agree with others that the inquiry should be about learning above all else.

I was invigilating mock exams in January 2020 and had a word with the pupils to do their very best because they may not be able to sit the actual exams in June, due to a possible pandemic. They took the message seriously.

Young people didn't want to spread the disease. They were kept indoors for longer because of the inadequate response of Boris Johnson and his Government. Shameful.

Well whose advice did they act on ?
What science did they listen too ?

It was obviously bad from the scenes we saw coming from Italy ?

Why did they think it wouldn't reach us ?

The delay obviously cost lives when the virus was as its most virulent.
However Boris is.a liberation and didn't want to lock down which is the irony of the position he was in ,the fact he got such a good dose of COVID he nearly died and then after most of no 10 had it was accused of living it up with one suprise bday cake.

My mother died in April 2021. She'd been complaining of back pain. Dr refused to see her in person because of covid. She had cancer and died without any treatment. When she was eventually taken to hospital the conditions around covid and being allowed in meant she died alone and no one was allowed to see her or be with her. It was completely inhumane, unnecessary and a total shit show

Could have been avoided not would have been avoided, based on some modelling with a spreadsheet I would guess.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing 6 years later, did anyone in the world have a definitive answer as to how to deal with it at the time?

I caught it twice regardless of following all the guidance just lucky I was not susceptible.

My recollections of lockdown etc are of fierce arguments on MN - yes here, from posters who were not taking any notice of lockdown and doing whatever the liked.

Funny how now so many people are saying it should have happened sooner.

Hindsight is wonderful.

Even today there are posts from people who feel ill and 'wondering' if they have Covid but don't bother to test- just spread if they have it.

Everyone saying they got it wrong- many people didn't even comply when the rules came in. Many people ignored lockdown.

Presumably you also remember the arguments from people before the lockdown saying we weren’t doing enough, the voices in public saying that the government weren’t doing enough. It’s not just hindsight there were a lot of people saying this at the time.

There were a lot of companies sending people home to work before the lockdown started. By the time the schools shut attendance was already down to about 50% or less.