Fiancé asking for a prenup

[Aquea]

Fiancé and I have had a relatively short relationship. We’ve only been together for two years. I basically had to make it very clear that I would not be having children without being married. Just for legal protection. Got a bit of push back on that in the early days but I did say that marriage was a non negotiable for me and if that wasn’t for fiance then he and I should part ways.

Anyway, now we are engaged. Fiancé has asked I sign a prenup. Fiancé has his own successful business. We’re not talking a champagne lifestyle but he is comfortable enough and owns several assets. His business is fairly large - employs 35 people. But the margins are small and the overheads are massive.

I don’t have an issue in some regards as I’m certainly not marrying for the sake of money alone. I plan to carry on working FT.

But the actual concept is extremely cynical and unromantic. It’s really made me feel shit. Like I can’t be trusted. I’m kind of sick of indirectly having to convince fiancé that I am good person to marry.

We plan to have children.

it just feels like it’s one thing after another. Ie having to explain my reasoning for wanting to get married and now a prenup. The path to being engaged just seems already so negotiated.

@MenopauseSucksi don’t think you can set out a plan for who does what in the marriage, in a pre nup. The purpose of the document is to determine asset division on divorce. Even if you could include such things as you describe, how’s that going to be enforced? Say he doesn’t end up doing the prescribed amount of childcare - what’s the sanction for that, how are you going to evidence it on the balance of probabilities, and how are you going to persuade a family court judge to enforce it?

In your situation a pre nup would not be enforced, for the reasons I’ve explained in other posts.

Have you also discussed what happens during pregnancy, baby years, school runs, sick days etc? And the costs attached to child rearing?

That’s not the whole picture though is it.

If a pre nio is signed, and money is separated, op wouldn’t have access to funds and financial support. The op would have to rely on the ‘goodwill’ of her dh to offer her support. It’s completely different to a shared bank account and shared assets. I would be extremely concerned about coercion and financial abuse in this scenario, where the mother is unable to work through no fault of her own, and is solely reliant on a man for any income at all.

What happens if she becomes injured, seriously ill or disabled herself?

I have been on MN long enough to know that there are some extremely poor outcomes in these scenarios with children going without basics, because the dh didn’t think new shoes for the dc in the right size was a good use of money.

By agreeing to this arrangement, you are leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to abuse/a controlling relationship and other poor outcomes.

That’s not the whole picture though is it.

If a pre nio is signed, and money is separated, op wouldn’t have access to funds and financial support. The op would have to rely on the ‘goodwill’ of her dh to offer her support. It’s completely different to a shared bank account and shared assets. I would be extremely concerned about coercion and financial abuse in this scenario, where the mother is unable to work through no fault of her own, and is solely reliant on a man for any income at all.

What happens if she becomes injured, seriously ill or disabled herself?

I have been on MN long enough to know that there are some extremely poor outcomes in these scenarios with children going without basics, because the dh didn’t think new shoes for the dc in the right size was a good use of money.

By agreeing to this arrangement, you are leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to abuse/a controlling relationship and other poor outcomes.

I think you’re confusing what happens during the marriage with what happens regarding a pre nup and its enforceability on divorce. The existence of a pre nup does not alter how parties share their finances during a marriage.

What on earth are you talking about?

Over 50% of marriages end in divorce.
I'm sure that those couples will have believed they were together until the end.
I would want to protect my assets too.
Insist on a decent pay-out. Business works both ways.

Before stock markets open theres something called a premarket where you can trade before the market opens. .And I guess the best way to explain is that people guess how much stocks are going to be worth. Diffrent times for diffrent locations. From 11pm to 2am premarket opens in Asia and Australia

It is bound to influence the way they share finances during their marriage. How can it not? It shouldn’t be confusing.

If they sign to keep their finances separate it’s extremely likely they will remain exactly that - separate. If op is then in a position that many mothers find themselves in with a disabled or sick child/she is too ill herself to work she has no access to money whatsoever and will be reliant on the goodwill of her dh or not as the case may be. She can’t even access benefits. She is then in an extremely vulnerable position. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

Whay are you deliberately ignoring the human element. That is the effect it would have on family relations to actually do this, regardless of any court decision?

I've seen this exact session play out in real life. The ex wife kept the house. Kicking her out was a fight too far for the husband.

Like I said. Pre nups are largely irrelevant. And no, the ex husband didn't get to keep the assets acquired before the marriage. The house was paid for by an inheritance he received years before he even met his wife.

I don’t think this is the case at all, but even if it were, he’d then expect separate finances with or without a pre nup. Plenty of people - both men and women - do demand separate finances in a marriage and that has nothing to do with whether or not they also have a pre nup. This man wants to protect his business. That’s a different thing to how he wants to organise domestic finances. But the OP should also discuss with him what their expectations on that point are.

So he had a house that he inherited before the marriage and then she stillanaged to get half of that, too?

If you bring an inheritance acquired before the marriage into the marriage by using it to buy what is the marital home, it becomes a marital asset. You can ring fence pre-acquired inheritance in some circumstances but not if you use it like this

It is bound to influence the way they share finances during their marriage. How can it not? It shouldn’t be confusing.

If they sign to keep their finances separate it’s extremely likely they will remain exactly that - separate. If op is then in a position that many mothers find themselves in with a disabled or sick child/she is too ill herself to work she has no access to money whatsoever and will be reliant on the goodwill of her dh or not as the case may be. She can’t even access benefits. She is then in an extremely vulnerable position. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

Have you decided what to do @Aquea?

Why why do you keep on circling around benefits? As though that's the normal position, people find themselves in actually most women in England work, it's like you're coming in from a different century. It doesn't make any sense. You have got a very specific situation that you keep on talking about. It's not common to have a disabled child. You must know that. Also, if your child has severe disabilities, that would not be able to be negated by a prenap. You've been told this again and again and again. Also, it just sounds like you should marry someone. That's got the exact same income as you. And then fifty-fifty percent share the care of everything in the household. And the child? That's the only way everyone could be happy because there's no argument for somaeone, thinking that something that they have never contributed to. Should be theirs, doesn't make any sense.It's entitled, and if a man was to say that he would be shot down

You don't seem to get it. If a woman leaves herself so completely vulnerable, she's got no money. Whatsoever That's nothing to do with a sick child. That's poor planning or lack of ability to communicate. You can't blame other people for a situation. You walked into eyes open. It doesn't make any sense. It literally is an unplanned life. And it doesn't even take a lot of planning to make sure that you've got some kind of financial stability, not wealth. But just basic economic literacy, you don't have that. And you want to marry someone that actually has got that, and a lot of assets. The safest thing they can do is create a prenup because you've demonstrated no financial capacity. It's a scary thing to marry someone who has no concept of money but who expects to use yours. That's crazy to me

The prenup in the UK would likely only hold up pre children anyway. Once they are on the scene the situation changes. His reasons are just as valid as yours until that point.

In fact I’d use it as a vehicle to get extremely clear with him on finances. Who pays for what how its split and what happens when you’re pregnant maternity leave childcare etc - and if you’re not happy with his position great better to know before than after. Everyone should have these conversations before marriage & children.

They're not married yet. If she's expecting to have to "work on" the marriage before they're even married / had children then the simpler option is to work fulltime and build her career and ditch the risky relationship.

He owns a business - in his position, I'd also want a prenup.

Otherwise in the event of a divorce, he may have to either sell or liquidate the business at short notice to settle a divorce.

A prenup doesn't mean that you shouldn't be entitled to any of the wealth accrued in his business but it might set out how that division would take place and over what time frame rather than forcing a sale in the wrong period.
He may also have other investors in the business - or may bring them in - or banks that finance it and have a claim on the business so it isn't that simple.

The co-founder of the business I work for had to wait several years for a suitable liquidity point to sell part of his stake and pay that to his ex-wife. He doesn't control the business despite being a co-founder so it isn't always simple when a business is involved.

A pre nup shouldn't mean you are left with nothing and a good one can make a divorce simpler. Get a lawyer of your own and listen to the offer they are proposing.

Marriage is a legal contract and has financial impact. It isn't just a romantic statement.

That was my first suggestion in the post you responded to. We agree!

Wow. You really don’t get it do you. A woman can easily have a sterling career, plenty of savings and investments - but if they find themselves with a child or children that require 247 care her savings aren’t going to last for very long if she can’t actually work. Her career is meaningless unless she can physically work. Even moderately poorly/special needs children require much more investment in terms of time and resources.

That is why a solid marriage of two equals is so important, and her dh is equally responsible in terms of time and an availability and he is financially capable of meeting their needs in ALL scenarios.

You clearly haven’t been on MN for very long if you haven’t seen the number of poor outcomes for both the women and children in these predicaments.

Separate finances, no access to money IS an issue, and particularly acute if you have disabled or poorly children. There is no guarantee OP’s dh will share his income. She is practically signing that away. It’s very risky.

She would be best advised to ditch the relationship, focus on her own career and security.