Fiancé asking for a prenup

[Aquea]

Fiancé and I have had a relatively short relationship. We’ve only been together for two years. I basically had to make it very clear that I would not be having children without being married. Just for legal protection. Got a bit of push back on that in the early days but I did say that marriage was a non negotiable for me and if that wasn’t for fiance then he and I should part ways.

Anyway, now we are engaged. Fiancé has asked I sign a prenup. Fiancé has his own successful business. We’re not talking a champagne lifestyle but he is comfortable enough and owns several assets. His business is fairly large - employs 35 people. But the margins are small and the overheads are massive.

I don’t have an issue in some regards as I’m certainly not marrying for the sake of money alone. I plan to carry on working FT.

But the actual concept is extremely cynical and unromantic. It’s really made me feel shit. Like I can’t be trusted. I’m kind of sick of indirectly having to convince fiancé that I am good person to marry.

We plan to have children.

it just feels like it’s one thing after another. Ie having to explain my reasoning for wanting to get married and now a prenup. The path to being engaged just seems already so negotiated.

What? Does unconditional love mean being stupid? Protecting your assets is very common. Don’t want a prenup? Marry someone with similar finances.

Having a baby with a man is very risky, you will be bearing all the risks and the physical costs since you are the one who grows the child in your body etc. It's much easier for him to screw you over than vice versa. He wants you to take that leap of faith while he does everything he can to protect himself.
In other words, he's not taking a leap of faith but he wants you to leave yourself exposed to being exploited by him.

A pre - nup is not common unless you are in the U.S maybe

I wouldn’t be marrying him, personally.

It sounds like he wasn’t keen on the idea of marrying in the first place and this is a way for him to keep some control when you’ve made it a pre-requisite for having children with him.

I wouldn’t want to have kids with someone who hated the idea of his life - and finances - being legally intertwined with mine.

The problem with a prenup from the business is that if your divorce and it is upheld (they can be in some circumstances), you'd potentially have three kids and nothing from divorce. He could then arrange things to give himself no income so you get no child maintenance. E.g. by paying his salary to his new girlfriend. Hard no from me. He's either all in or he isn't.

Protecting his business is a way of protecting his future earning potential.
Having children is very damaging to a woman's future earning potential.

He wants to preserve and protect his future earning potential whilst expecting you to damage your future earning potential.

If you had all these assets and a successful business wouldn't you want to try and protect what you'd worked for? If they happened before, independently of your spouse?

Imagine having to give part of those things away to someone who you've fallen out with, and might have cheated or left you? These things do happen.

Legally he will have to provide for his children, I don't think there's any prenup that can get someone out of that responsibility. And anything accrued together during the relationship should be spilt if you do.

But not things either of you achieved before the relationship became serious.

I agree with this op.

You are - wisely - wanting protections on your side, and he is wanting them on his.

Romance is a lovely thing but the truth is that marriage is about a whole lot more ( and you know that because of your comments about it being non-negotiable if children are in the picture). Truthfully I think the people who go into marriage realising that are often the ones who actually make a good go of it. It's the romantics who run out of steam when up all night sleep deprived, fielding a sick child and their spouse is farting in their sleep.

I think it shows he is taking the whole thing as the serious step it is.

I know lots of people who threw caution to the winds of romance, marry in a haze of delusional lust and it all ended up on the rocks.

Friends of mine got married in Switzerland years ago. They had a pre-nup because he had a business and wanted to protect his employees from being made jobless, should he have had to sell the company on divorce.
They did get divorced, he wanted a family life and she was very career-orientated, so it was good to have the framework in place and everyone understood what was what.
Yes, this is not at all romantic, on the other hand it is sensible and pragmatic - if there are peoples' livelihoods at risk.

Who contributes to these? If you are on maternity leave or working part time will you get less spending money than him?
If you are in the UK then ring fencing the business but going on to have children and you going on mat leave/working part time and doing childcare will, AIUI, mean you have a claim on his other pre-marital assets anyway - he can't continue to build them up when you are married and have DCs, unless you do childcare - if he was doing the childcare, he'd have to scale back his business.

If you got married now, but split without kids in a year, I have no idea whether you'd get any of his business - that's probably the point to concede on - but honestly if he's just thinking business first and wife second, that's not what you want in a man.

Legally he will have to provide for his children
We all know that men find it very easy to avoid actually paying for their children!

Except, she wants to get married to protect her and her children. He wants protection to just protect him.

Children belong to both, but the business just belongs to him.

I think the key question is how solid is the relationship? Does he support you when things are tough? Does he genuinely see you as an equal partner? Does he pull his weight around the house? Does he make you laugh, and make you feel safe and loved? If the answer to all that is yes, then the prenup is fine, as long as you make sure it is fair to both of you. If not then the prenup is irrelevant, and you shouldn't be marrying him anyway.

Which is very smart thing to do. He has a responsibility for his employees and their career will he depend on the success of your marriage. You can negotiate some type of monetary compensation.

What would be fair is that they both benefit from marriage (men benefit to marriage too) and they both take out pre nups so they are equally protected.

The OP getting married is no where near the same legal protection as her DF. He gets married (one form of protection) and his business is protected.

I can't believe people think these two things are the same.

So why has he agreed to marry you if he doesn't want to marry you? And why are you marrying him?

There's nothing wrong with him asking for a prenup. He wanted financial security just like you do, what's wrong with that? I think it's sensible. Why is it on for you to want security but it's not ok for him?

The feeling of it being unromantic isn't because of the prenup, it's because you've given him an ultimatum. I think you know he doesn't want marriage.

I'm going against the grain probably. I can see how this all feels very unromantic but marriage is a legal contract it's just become more romanticised over time. I'm a head person rather than heart so I think having these discussions is important. Well done on insisting on marriage to protect yourself & children when they arrive, obviously make sure any deal you make is reasonable then get on with your soon to be married life. I say this as a person who has observed many people getting screwed over in life (personal & professional)

Simply not true any more. Radmacher v Granatino. After this case, courts generally uphold prenups as long as they meet fairness and procedural safeguards (e.g., disclosure, no pressure, legal advice, time before wedding).

Just this very thread could be the start of a legal claim against a prenup, e.g., if the OP says she was pressured into it, didn't have enough time to consider it, etc but this thread shows questions and knowledge 6 -12 months before the wedding.

Prenups don’t mean you get nothing on divorce by the way. If it does, it is unlikely to be upheld as it would be unfair. Why shouldn’t he protect his business? Has the OP contributed towards it in some way?

So he made it clear from the start that he's hesitant to marry, but you've drawn a line to say he has to compromise if he wants children with you; doesn't sound very romantic, and you wouldn't compromise on your red line because you want legal (financial) protection. His red line is protecting his business (legal and financial), so this is your compromise. Compromise should never be all one-way.

Maybe he'd find it unromantic if you didn't want to marry him without a claim on his pre-existing fortune?

Or that you don't want to commit to having children with him without marital ties. I think this is sensible of you btw - but it still could look "unromantic" from his perspective.

Yes: we cross posted.

I think op is finding her stipulation is "romantic" because it involves saying she wants marriage, whereas his is saying he wants a pre-nup. But that's not a very analytical assessment of the situation. Both envisage a marital breakdown.

They are essentially both just taking sensible steps to make sure their very important relationship is built on firm ground that makes sense above and beyond the throes of passion - that fade, necessarily.

You have a clear plan to have children, with someone who will provide for them, and you too if you consider it necessary. That's fine. However you seem more interested in this hypothetical future than you are in the reality of where you are in your current relationship. You are forcing things.

He, quite rightly, while going along with you, is also moving to protect his existing assets, including his business and all the other people he is already responsible for.

You have a very cool-eyed hard-headed plan; why shouldn't he? The only reason this pre-nup would upset you is if somewhere you have an idea that marriage means you own all of him, and that you can take everything from him if (when) you decide you want to in the future.

Slow down. Find someone genuinely compatible to marry and have children with. Do you even like this guy?

If you are in this relationship primarily because you want kids, be honest, with yourself and with him. Don't do it. Or at least be less snotty about a mutually-agreed contractual arrangement.

Does your fiancé actually want to have children?

Split up.
This is not the man you are looking for.