To have completely misunderstood the meaning of some sayings?

[KermitTheToad]

I only found out today that the term Social Butterfly refers to someone who is outgoing and loves social events. I thought it meant you didn't like social events, as in you would fly away and avoid them. I also until recently thought that a Spendthrift is somebody who is frugal in their spending. I assumed that as thrifty meant not being wasteful, that Spendthrift meant being careful in what you spent.
YANBU..I see where you are coming from.
YABU.. You are a wally, go back to school!

So it had to be two numbers the same that balanced each other as the problem goes back and forth

But originally he wanted to called it Catch 18.

Yes but 22 is better and works in the context of the book dont you think?

@RafaFan 22 wasn't significant other than he liked it. They were caught and unable to get out of the situation, hence the 'catch'

Because it had no solution. So two of tbe same numbers shows the circular nature of the argument.

Its like that Plato thing (someone correct me). X is a liar. X says they are a liar. So X must be lying. In which case X tells the truth. An onward. Plato should have called that Lie 22 maybe. For catchyness.

It's one that caused confusion between DH and I recently. Apparently is becoming unusable/changing it's meaning.

DH handed over a an phone to be repaired and said the man looked nonplussed - which to me sounded bad but he didn't have that intonation.

Nonplussed to me means surprised and confused.

In US youtubers especially it seems to mean non bothered unperturbed - the complete opposite and he seems to have picked up that version. We looked it up as he insisted I was wrong .

Really bugs me when people say "carrot and stick" to mean you can use a carrot OR a stick. Its wrong. The carrot was on the end of the stick to keep the donkey moving but he never actually gets it... he's reaching for it. So its carrot and stick, an inducement, not carrot OR stick.

No because I’ve looked that up before but it’s a good mnemonic!

But carrot or stick is more helpful to describe that sort of situation which I thought it meant? Ie you can get someone to do something either by being nice or mean.

Maybe.

But it seems that 22 was chosen merely because another novel with 18 in the title had recently been released.

So two of tbe same numbers shows the circular nature of the argument.

@Leavesfalling - that appears to be your gloss on it, but reading up I can't see any evidence that Heller or his publishers were thinking that deeply about the choice of 22.

We'd trim the tree and have a Christmas dinner with all the trimmings 😕

Spose. But it still works better I think. If it was Catch 18 it would simply be describing the rule itself. Whereas Catch 22 is better at encapsulated that it is a puzzle with no better weight on one side than the other. And each side of the argument reflects the other. Back and forth. 22. 18 doesn't do that.

Anyway he's dead now. So we can't check.

The stick was never supposed to be used to hit the donkey ... so it was never the mean option. Its just holding the carrot out in front of him. Its like offering a kid a sweet if they tidy up. The alternative is not punishment, just no sweet

We did as well but I think I remember the decorations also being called the trimmings!

Once again I find I have got the wrong end of the stick (ahem) with a proverb.

• First literary appearance: The first recorded instance of the phrase appeared in the 1849 narrative Dead Sea Expedition by Edward P. Montague. The book describes a donkey race where one donkey is motivated by a carrot on a stick, while another is being beaten with a stick.

I thought it was either you use a stick to hit the donkey - punishment or you use a carrot offer future inducements/rewards.

You could offer both punishment and rewards but first example of it being used is just saying either punishment or future rewards was being used to motivate the donkey.

Really bugs me when people say "carrot and stick" to mean you can use a carrot OR a stick

Never heard it used that way!

Only to mean an inducement.

Is ‘trimming the Christmas tree’ a regional thing? I’ve never heard that one myself (south east) or the verb ‘to trim’ as ‘to decorate’ more generally. Except now you mention it, the one phrase ‘Christmas/roast dinner with all the trimmings’.

That made me laugh as I drove past a sign that said plants crossing a while back and a little voice from the back seat said “mum can plants walk?” I knew exactly what she’d just read.

It refers to two options of motivation - punishment ie hit with a stick - or reward - ie carrot at end of the stick.

I've never heard it referred to as only inducemnet - and surpised that so many posters are confused- even google AI agrees with me so must be general concensus even on the internet.

AI Overview
The "carrot and stick" theory is a method of motivation that uses rewards (the carrot) to entice desired behavior and punishments (the stick) to deter unwanted behavior. This approach leverages both positive reinforcement, such as bonuses or promotions, and negative consequences, like demotions or threats of termination, to influence people to act in a certain way. It is widely used in management, politics, and other fields to achieve specific goals

So the origin of the metaphor is how I’ve always heard it used - the carrot representing motivation from positive reward and the stick representing motivation to avoid bad consequences. People sometimes talk about the carrot being more effective than the stick or a ‘carrot and stick’ approach where you give both positive incentives and threaten consequences for not doing something.

Yes - exactly.

Not sure why so many posters seem to think differently.

Yes! I was just about to post about nonplussed and how the US meaning is not just different but the opposite!

Similar one, I've noticed when people used to say they are "not fussed" about something they meant not bothered, did not mind either way. But it seems to be getting more common that people say it to mean they are "not keen" on something i.e. they DO mind and actively dislike.

Neither/either seem to have been blurred together too. I always thought neither referred to two options, both unsuitable for selection and either as two options which could both be suitable for selection. But particularly in US English, either now seems to be used to mean neither. So traditionally if my friend asked if I preferred red or white wine and I said "either" it meant I liked both. But if I said "neither" it meant I disliked both of the two options. But now someone could say "I don't like any wine" and receive the response "me either" in agreement which makes no sense to my old fashioned ears. Surely it should be "neither" or "I don't either".

I remember doing a drawing in junior school which was of a common saying, I did many hands make light work … I drew a light bulb with a load of hands around it … I was only 10 ish at the time 🤣

I've never heard it referred to as only inducemnet - and surpised that so many posters are confused- even google AI agrees with me so must be general concensus even on the internet.

I'm not confused.

Just pointing out that I hadn't heard it used that way!