Out of control kids

[littlesnatchabook]

Hi, I desperately need help with my kids please ☹️ I have two very 'spirited' little boys, whose liveliness has turned the corner into plain old bad behaviour recently. They are 6 and 3. The 6 year old I'm sure has ADHD but as yet is undiagnosed. The 3 year old I'm certain is neurotypical, just crazy 😁
Home life is not great, not awful either...I'm working on that, but in the meantime I need to be able to get some kind of order in the home. They are wild! They don't listen, mealtimes are a battle, the little one constantly pesters the older one, which inevitably leads to physical fights between them. They used to get on so well but they argue more often than playing now. They leave a trail of mess behind them. I'm so stressed out at not being able to get through to them and I end up shouting just to be listened to, which is not the kind of parent I set out to be. I do apologise but at some point that just becomes meaningless doesn't it.
I really need some techniques to help me regain some control. I'm not too much into gentle parenting but I'm not for long timeouts on their own or harsh punishments either. Somewhere in the middle sits well with me. As specific as possible would really help me too. I have ADHD myself and really struggle with keeping up behaviour charts etc, plus neither child responded once the initial novelty wore off.
Behaviours I need help with specifically:

DS1 constantly getting up or stalking when eating dinner. Needs TV to eat.
DS2 essentially does what he wants, screams, fights, throws things when he doesn't get his way. Feel beholden to him.
having to physically carry or manhandle (not unkindly) DS2 upstairs for bedtime because he just won't go
Asking DS1 to do something - have to repeat sometimes dozens of times
DS2 jabbing at his brother - for example, DS1 sitting on the sofa drawing so DS2 lies there putting his feet on him and his notebook

Lots lots more.
Things I've tried:

Pokémon card rewards or confiscation
pocket money deductions
toy confiscation
short timeouts with an adult with them (this actually works for DS1 but DS2 makes it a living hell)
a points system (works a bit for DS1 but hard to keep in top of and also I don't really know how to reward for it)

Please please help. I'm desperate to be a better mum to them and I know I'm letting them down right now. Plus, I'm going insane.

I can relate. I have ADHD and my boys are showing signs of having it too. Home life is very stressful. The only thing that helps is separating them up and trying to be outside as much as possible.
I’m following with interest for tips.

I’m just going to make a list of things that work for us but they may not be suitable for you -
lots of outside time in all weathers , park after school , trampoline in the garden to bounce of the energy , time in some woods so they can be completely feral!
zero youtube - this has made the biggest difference in behaviour
Set up activity’s for each child separately after school so they have seperate unwind time .
just add water - bath / shower / play in the rain , it always seems diffuse my son when a mood hits him

I think they are at hard ages. I remember at one point my kids literally couldn’t be in the same room as each other without there being some sort of issue/fighting/sniping. It’s so draining.

keeping them apart as much as possible worked for us. Even if in the same room. They weren’t allowed to sit on the same sofa, next to each other at a table etc. Giving one child a job to do, and the other another job. Focusing one child on one thing, the other on another.

basically keeping them away from each other! Mine are 10 and 12 now and are….slightly better. I decided when they were quite young to not sweat the small stuff and stop getting so involved with them and their ‘politics’. Let them figure it out themselves a bit.

good luck!

The behaviours you describe are normal for boys who need a leader, not a best friend and unfettered freedom. They don’t care about the points system you created because ultimately they see you have no status. They are currently vying for attention, learning that he who is most vile gets to dominate. You need to turn the tables and be in charge. Ideally, their father needs to step in - there’s something about a man’s voice that makes boys pay attention.

Rules, routines and competition work really well for boys. It means that instead of saying ‘don’t do x’, your language changes to ‘well done for x’.

Examples:
’let’s see who’s the best boy at sitting at the table nicely’
’let’s see who’s the quickest to put the toys in the toy chest’

Teach them them lots and lots of routines, such as how to lay the table, how to take the dishes to the dishwasher, how to make a bed, how to pair socks. Make the routines up - what we looking for is responsibility and success rather than actual usefulness ‘right, now it’s time to sort x’. All of these things followed by praise. Make a rotation of ‘who’s in charge’ of these chores - it’ll make them feel important (young men ultimately crave this status). Don’t do that silly thing of having a collaborative ideas session followed by democratic vote.

On the specific issues you cite
’no, it’s against the rules to watch tv while eating’
’it’s time for bed…well done the other brother for being a good boy….he gets a scary story where he is the hero tonight [created by chatgpt that I read to him]’
’it’s against the rules to poke your brother’

You need to be crystal clear, firm, and show them exactly where the line is. This requires a deep breath and an investment of energy. I know you’re tired, but unless you do this, things will get worse. The amount of testosterone in their bodies will keep going up.

Yours,

An experienced mother of 4 decent, kind young men who used to be little herberts.

Oh and by the way, feel free to ask questions.

Also, the more on the spectrum boys are, the more they thrive on rules, routines, fairness. Don’t fall for the floppy nonsense otherwise they’ll maladapt even more and you’ll end up with antisocial gaming addicts who punch holes in the wall and refuse to go to school. Trust me, I’ve got enough experience over the years hearing the patterns unfold for fellow parents.

Make a plan. You can do this.

Cut out screens. They are temporary respite and generally make the behaviour worse around them. 3 weeks for behavioural change so whatever you do you need to do for that long. Get outdoors, puddlesuits on and go puddlejumping.

Set out visable routines for them- for the morning and after school. Basic and easy , mine do get home, shoes/ bag/coat away, get changed and wash hands. Instant reward, sets everything up with a good tone.

We have ADHD in this house and it's hard, consistency is key and lots of praise. Also get robot hoover- kids quickly tidy up when there's a machine trying to eat their stuff.

I disagree with previous posters idea to create competition between them. With the ADHD that's not a good idea. Yes high drive but high rejection sensitivity will lead to ill feeling. You're trying to lower the conflict in the house. Set them different tasks.

When the adult is in charge, and the rules are clear, a small amount of competition is good. Obvs unfettered competition is bad. But if you’re trying to avoid all ill feeling and uncomfortableness, then that is even worse - what happens when they are men and they get their GCSE results, or when they see their colleagues get a pay rise for meeting a sales target? Are future employers supposed to create an ‘everyone’s a winner’ situation just because Timmy’s grown up in a household where his feelings come first?

For a non neurotypical child asking them to sit and eat it actually a really had task and after attending a study day on AFRID which discussed children with ASD and ADHD as part of it (attended due to my ow ASD child) I have realised the pressure and sensory overload this expectation gave was too much. I now allow the tv on and it he walks around and then eats it’s fine it’s what he needs but I will promote and advise such as you are not eating so need to keep going or the tv will have to go off. Redirect and refocus is the key to success will a lot of non neurotypical children.
for me educating myself on his brain and processing helped me parent and put in achievable boundaries as well as helped me understand his processing

Is there another adult around at some point in the evening? so one is out for a late walk other is errrrr late walk in other direction (sorry it's dark in the evenings now otherwise I'd have said bike run, park )
Someone told me the fighting gives them a dopamine hit - so that is why it happens all the time.
Also heard that getting DCs diagnosed early speeds up support etc , diagnosis takes longer after 6
Probably allow tv during meals to get them to sit at the table.

Contact your local council and ask them about parenting classes they can refer you to.

Can you recommend any books?

I’m struggling to understand how this is meeting needs? It sounds like placation and also teaching a habit of getting up and walking around. How is this working out at school?

Surely a calm, quiet ten minutes sitting eating dinner is much less ‘sensory overload’ than getting up, scraping the chair, accidentally dropping knives and forks, walking around constantly, sitting back down, picking up fork again, listening to endless messages from mum with the tv blaring in the background…..?

This is a really good book but the course was thrown by the sunshine society

As a mum of 3 boys one who is autistic and has ADHD i agree with all of this. I also work with kids and young people and they all need routines, boundaries and clear, consistent rules to feel safe and behave well. It sounds like theas boys are in charge not the op and that needs to change.

Kids that age also need a lot of movement time so park visits, trampolines, running, cycling etc. I would also be seriously limiting screen time including TV its very detrimental for kids especially ones who need to be active.

Fighting is because they’re bored and haven’t learned social rules. Please do not make excuses for fighting. Their teachers, classmates and other parents will not appreciate or tolerate this.

Agree with lots of movement time, too. These lads could be feeling a bit cooped up. It might be really difficult for the mother if she’s having to work from home while also supervising (which is more like damage control right now).

I’m with PP here, we are sitting with no screens at dinner, heavily reinforced, because as an adult it is 100% socially unacceptable to be unable to eat sitting at a table with no screens at a) your girlfriend/boyfriend’s house, b) when you eat with colleagues c) when you are in a restaurant. Some things are non-negotiable, and if sitting for long enough is an issue, make meals small with that offset by decent/healthy snacks.

I also cannot imagine that school will allow wandering around with food at lunchtime, so it’s not impossible for him to do it therefore.

It could be that it's not undiagnosed ADHD and it's something else?

Sometimes, for example, the children of 'gentle parenting' parents are considered to have ADHD but they're often actually just struggling with a lack of boundaries

This is excellent advice. Parents really need to take a more active part in setting boundaries and expectations so children can function in every day life. I have to run my classroom like a military operation with me as commander in chief.

Whether or not your child has an underlying condition, this behaviour is not acceptable. You are setting them up to fail.

Both of my DS’s (now 18 and 25) have ADHD. TBH I’m not really sure how we made it through their younger years intact. 😂
One thing I did pick up on in your post that we used and did work quite well is reward charts.
With kids with ADHD the rewards have to be soon ie not at the end of the month. They won’t be arsed being good for a whole month for a reward. I involved ours in the making of the reward charts. We decided together what some house rules were and then what rewards they would like. We also started out giving extra stickers for really low bar stuff. I mean ridiculous stuff because at the start there was hardly any positive behaviour to reward.

Thank you! It must be a worry for you to read some of the other advice on this thread

’let them eat standing up with the tv on because sensory’
’fighting is about dopamine’
’maybe if they get a diagnosis there’ll be more support’
’avoid situations where their feelings might be a bit hurt’
’just separate them and put them in separate places to stop the fighting’

Out of interest, how would that work in your classroom?

This is perfectly put. Thank you.

I have a friend who follows the model of letting the children decide what to do, and the boys are now violent, not just unruly. I will send her your post

I agree with this, although we have girls with many teeny tiny doll parts. Rooms miraculously clear at the hum of the scheduled clean.....

Those boys will be deeply unhappy then. They will struggle to have friendships, hold down jobs.

Worryingly, I see a lot of well meaning advice that sounds good, but in fact allows the status quo and permits even worse maladaptation - if you were slightly on the spectrum you’ll be worse as the years go by. It feels surreal as an older mother and experienced leader to see this advice be doled out, knowing full well it’ll mean a bad ending and exhaustion for the mother.

Frequently, this advice is doled out by people with no skin in the game, or who only have young children and haven’t seen it all pan out. Yes, it might be nice to let your children eat their dinner while viewing an ipad and dangling from a tree in a forest school, but this is merely a holding pattern, not ‘meeting needs’.