Out of control kids

[littlesnatchabook]

Hi, I desperately need help with my kids please ☹️ I have two very 'spirited' little boys, whose liveliness has turned the corner into plain old bad behaviour recently. They are 6 and 3. The 6 year old I'm sure has ADHD but as yet is undiagnosed. The 3 year old I'm certain is neurotypical, just crazy 😁
Home life is not great, not awful either...I'm working on that, but in the meantime I need to be able to get some kind of order in the home. They are wild! They don't listen, mealtimes are a battle, the little one constantly pesters the older one, which inevitably leads to physical fights between them. They used to get on so well but they argue more often than playing now. They leave a trail of mess behind them. I'm so stressed out at not being able to get through to them and I end up shouting just to be listened to, which is not the kind of parent I set out to be. I do apologise but at some point that just becomes meaningless doesn't it.
I really need some techniques to help me regain some control. I'm not too much into gentle parenting but I'm not for long timeouts on their own or harsh punishments either. Somewhere in the middle sits well with me. As specific as possible would really help me too. I have ADHD myself and really struggle with keeping up behaviour charts etc, plus neither child responded once the initial novelty wore off.
Behaviours I need help with specifically:

DS1 constantly getting up or stalking when eating dinner. Needs TV to eat.
DS2 essentially does what he wants, screams, fights, throws things when he doesn't get his way. Feel beholden to him.
having to physically carry or manhandle (not unkindly) DS2 upstairs for bedtime because he just won't go
Asking DS1 to do something - have to repeat sometimes dozens of times
DS2 jabbing at his brother - for example, DS1 sitting on the sofa drawing so DS2 lies there putting his feet on him and his notebook

Lots lots more.
Things I've tried:

Pokémon card rewards or confiscation
pocket money deductions
toy confiscation
short timeouts with an adult with them (this actually works for DS1 but DS2 makes it a living hell)
a points system (works a bit for DS1 but hard to keep in top of and also I don't really know how to reward for it)

Please please help. I'm desperate to be a better mum to them and I know I'm letting them down right now. Plus, I'm going insane.

Passive parenting seems to be the current method of choice!

I've seen an increase over the last couple of years with children leaving their seats at random times, or putting up their hand in the middle of teaching to ask if they can get a drink. You need rewards and consequences. I get the ipad out to issue positive points and most of the class automatically sit up straighter - I don't even need to speak.

One of the best (or worst) has to be a parent a couple of years ago who was called in because the son had opened a toilet door from the outside. Obviously a safeguarding issue as there was a child (a girl in this case) at the toilet, but no recognition that this was a problem and if he had been a teen instead of an 8 year old then opening a toilet door like this could be viewed as sexual harassment. The parent told the child to leave the meeting with school staff and they would deal with it as it was 'too stressful for an 8 year old'. They then refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing on his part, initially stating that we were mistaken and he wouldn't do that. Mad as a box of frogs.

What do you mean when you say home life isn't great? If they're in a bad environment the environment needs to change for meaningful change to their behaviour.
Struggling to sit at meal times might be a sensory issue, look at wobble chairs or weighted blankets. Try sensory circuits a few times a day to, get out for lots of physical activity.

I notice you haven't mentioned screen bans. I'm pretty strict on screens anyway but total screen bans worked amazingly for me when they were that age, reinforced by actually physically removing the screens (the TV went in the attic for several days on one occasion 😂). I have two boys with exactly your age group and one is naturally very full of energy, so I'm not unsympathetic, but you have to be in charge. My youngest is a lovely kid now at age 10, but he absolutely needed rock solid boundaries and a degree of hard sanctioning at age 3-4. Other than that make sure you have the basics - lots of exercise, look at cutting out sugar, good sleep.

Thank you so much for all the helpful advice! I have a busy day ahead but will be back later with some questions if that's okay. Feeling more positive already just from reading these x

We tried out a book called 1-2-3 Magic. It worked well for us and can help for kids with ADHD.

@OwnGravityFieldthank you for your advice. A couple of questions if you don't mind...you say you would sometimes create little competitions - has this ever affected how close your boys are? And my most important question - I like what you said about having a leader mentality and really setting the rules, but I feel like I wouldn't know how to follow through with the rules. For example - it's against the rules to poke your brother - that makes sense but what would you then have done if they'd broken that rule?

A few posters have asked where my other half is in thrse scenarios...well, where indeed. Obviously a lot of the time he's just not there, he's working. And to be honest, when he is there he makes things worse. I can't change his behaviour, he won't listen. So I'm in this on my own really. I'm hoping he may follow suit if I can model for him.

One thing the youngest does is deliberately scream at his dad because he knows it 'hurts' his head (husband has PTSD and sensory issues). The only thing that stops this is being ignored but husband refuses to do this. I would love to hear some suggestions as to how I could put a stop to this if you have any.

I can see your point but it's less the bouncing off the walls that signals ADHD to me (although he does this also) but more the daydreaming, lack of attention span, hyper fixations, and what I suppose id kindly call 'faffing' around. Processing issues mentioned by school too. He's my mini me tbh 😆

What kind of rewards did you decide on?

My DD has 2 boys the same age and she sticks rigidly to a routine that includes outside time for wearing out activities every single day come rain or shine, strict screen times, strict sit down dinners and strict bath before bed at a set time. This has worked for her I think it’s the consistency that’s the key.

Things are not good between me and their dad. Actually mostly it's that he won't bend in terms of how he speaks to and around them. I'm not in a position to do anything major right now but am working on it. We still need to be able to function in the meantime. I will look into sensory circuits, thank you, the older one definitely needs more of an outlet.

I will definitely consider a full screen ban, as terrifying as that sounds lol. May I ask what kind of sanctions you used for your son when he was 3/4?

I’m really sorry if this sounds harsh as I can’t really relate to your situation but one sentence of your original post said ‘needs tv to eat’. This simply isn’t true, take the tv away put it in storage say it’s being fixed, will soon eat when hungry. Ok so this may impact you and other people in the house but it’s temporary. My niece (age 3) came over with my sister late afternoon today, my sister asked me to make her a late tea so I gave her some super noodles (no judgment here please we was eating our tea later) my sister said she won’t eat at the table you’ll have to let her eat it on her lap and I looked at my sister and simply said “like hell will she walk around with a bowl of noodles in my newly decorated house she can sit at the table or go without”. I made the noodles, sent my sister out with my own elder kids to the shop for 20 mins, sat her at the table and she ate the lot, no tv, no screens, I sat with her and we spoke about fireworks and she just got on with it. My sister couldn’t believe it when I got back. She then proceeded to create merry hell when my sister returned, threw one of my cushions and kicked my dogs water bowl for absolutely no reason. Don’t get me wrong my kids haven’t been angels for their whole lives but there are boundaries.

The YouTube thing worked well here too. We banned it outright and both boys behaviour improved almost overnight. I think there is something really weird about it, you never hear parents say "my kids are so badly behaved after watching Disney channel", why is YouTube so different?

Lots of outside time - really wear them out. Waterproof dungarees if needed, but fresh air works on their nervous system.
Cut screen time, it might be tough for the first few days, but the overstimulation will be impacting their behaviour.
Then choose what you're willing to fight over, and what you're willing to let go, and then really stick to your guns so the kids know you're not going to let up. So if you've told DS2 to leave DS1 alone, one warning, then count to 3, then an immediate consequence. Only needs to be losing their notebook for 5 minutes. Then you give it back. If they do it again lose it for 10 minutes. Then the rest of the day. You'll be surprised how the first couple of times it won't work, but will work in a just a couple of days. They have to believe you'll follow through so don't have big consequences you won't follow through on

@BeMellowAquaSquidyes that's a fair point, I suppose he can't actually need it can he! He eats perfectly well at school and restaurants. It's more that he just won't eat without it at home...if no TV then a timer sometimes works, as does counting out loud for him. But without them, he just doesn't eat. He doesn't even eat eventually, he'd just go hungry and cry a lot. But it does need to be addressed and we will look at a total TV ban for a while I think.

He’d probably go hungry for one meal time, he’s not going to starve because he doesn’t have a tv.

Very true!

My son is either has either ASD or ADHD (on the waiting list atm!) and responds well to a challenge, for example ‘I bet you can’t eat seven peas!’

We also successfully operate a three strikes rule. At each strike he loses one thing he enjoys and he receives two warning before the strike is issued.

Strike 1: No Mario Kart time with daddy.

Strike 2: Loss of tv time for the day.

Strike 3: The sweets jar is emptied into the bin.

We have never got to strike three 😅

Way less screen time.
Way more outdoor time.

Just do that for a couple of weeks and then take stock.

All I can suggest is as much physical activity as possible.

As soon as it's remotely fine, get outdoors. Picnic where possible.

Keep meal times short.

Do not accept screaming/hitting etc. Instant consequences, in room for five mins. Then ten mins etc.

At that age I found it so much easier to just be outside. There's nothing really to break outside!

He doesn't need a TV to eat

Tell him it's broken and secretly unplug it

Honestly op, who's in charge here?

Not sure if you have a garden? I'd suggest a trampoline

I separate my boys as much as possible (same age difference as yours, DS1 asd). If DS1 is in a mood I make them eat seperately so each can eat peacefully. Not ideal but you have to do what works for you and the kids.

When I say little competitions, it’s more the form of words I use in the moment. ‘Let’s see who can make the bed the quickest’. Used sparingly, it adds some fun. ‘Right. Who can get their bag, coat and shoes on for school and be ready at the front door before mummy gets her handbag.’ It’s never affected their relationship. I’ve mainly encouraged them to be the best they can be. Brothers do naturally compete with each other. The key is to set the terms of healthy competition. I will admit, there was some bantz about who got what in their GCSEs that I had to moderate.

When it comes to dealing with dinner time wind ups, I guess I’m fortunate that I have the kind of presence and tone where ‘no’ delivered firmly, fairly, with The Stare causes immediate ceasing of said behaviour. The main thing about follow up is that it’s consistent, short, sharp. You do need to follow through on your promises. If you’d said ‘no poking otherwise no pudding’, stick to it. Don’t make vague threats like ‘no visit from santa this year’ because they’ll think you’re a joke.

The other thing I would suggest that prevents dinner table squabbling in the first place is modelling and participation of dinner table conversation. ‘Would you rather’ is quite a fun one. ‘Would you rather be an enormous elephant or a tiny mouse’. ‘Would you rather eat only dinner or pudding for the rest of your life’. ‘Which superpower would you have’ ‘would you rather live in a hot country or a cold country’.

The art of polite dinner table conversation has died out, but I think it’s one of the most powerful ways parents can teach their children to focus, listen, broaden their thinking and disagree without things getting hysterical. You tend to find children at the table then become a bit of a captive market for the occassional lecture ‘no you’re not becoming a youtuber’. If parents are together, children learn a lot from hearing their parents plan their future, think about each other with kindness, support each other at worrying times (without saying too much that would cause children to worry). This offsets the terrible models of relationships children might see on TV.

If you are planning to upgrade the dinner table situation, I’d advise against the mode of allowing children to ‘hold court’. An example is mummy and daddy talking about something interesting and important, but they allow Timmy to butt in with an inane question or statement and then follow it up with ‘oh how wonderful Timmy that you found a green bogey’. The habit of butting in and expecting a positive reply I suspect frustrates the hell out of teachers. Also, and while I’m on the topic, let them eat a few spoonfuls first before engaging in convo because intense hunger will limit conversational brainpower.

With your husband’s PTSD, the son’s behaviour towards him is inadvertently abusive. I would suggest you have a joint plan of attack and be a united front on that. The moment that nonsense starts, a firm utterance of ‘no screaming’, boy gets lifted up and put in another room. Don’t start shouting back at the boy though. Literally do not give the boy a chance to escalate or make his excuses though. Alongside this strategy, have a joint plan of fostering ‘positive moments with daddy’. I suspect if your husband is knackered from work he won’t want to do storytime, but if you can nail a more positive, strict routine on bedtime that ends with a superhero story that your boys look forward to then you can create the space for him to step in willingly (because your husband is also a boy who craves respect and adoration - what more could he get from a son that loves storytime with him).

Oh and by the way, I was on my own a lot as husband worked loads. You can absolutely turn things around, if anything because you get to be the one ensuring consistency. Your boys are at the PERFECT age for teaching rules and routines. You will, however need your husband to step in with a mighty correction if/when your boys get to about 15 or 16 and start being gobby with you.