Out of control kids

[littlesnatchabook]

Hi, I desperately need help with my kids please ☹️ I have two very 'spirited' little boys, whose liveliness has turned the corner into plain old bad behaviour recently. They are 6 and 3. The 6 year old I'm sure has ADHD but as yet is undiagnosed. The 3 year old I'm certain is neurotypical, just crazy 😁
Home life is not great, not awful either...I'm working on that, but in the meantime I need to be able to get some kind of order in the home. They are wild! They don't listen, mealtimes are a battle, the little one constantly pesters the older one, which inevitably leads to physical fights between them. They used to get on so well but they argue more often than playing now. They leave a trail of mess behind them. I'm so stressed out at not being able to get through to them and I end up shouting just to be listened to, which is not the kind of parent I set out to be. I do apologise but at some point that just becomes meaningless doesn't it.
I really need some techniques to help me regain some control. I'm not too much into gentle parenting but I'm not for long timeouts on their own or harsh punishments either. Somewhere in the middle sits well with me. As specific as possible would really help me too. I have ADHD myself and really struggle with keeping up behaviour charts etc, plus neither child responded once the initial novelty wore off.
Behaviours I need help with specifically:

DS1 constantly getting up or stalking when eating dinner. Needs TV to eat.
DS2 essentially does what he wants, screams, fights, throws things when he doesn't get his way. Feel beholden to him.
having to physically carry or manhandle (not unkindly) DS2 upstairs for bedtime because he just won't go
Asking DS1 to do something - have to repeat sometimes dozens of times
DS2 jabbing at his brother - for example, DS1 sitting on the sofa drawing so DS2 lies there putting his feet on him and his notebook

Lots lots more.
Things I've tried:

Pokémon card rewards or confiscation
pocket money deductions
toy confiscation
short timeouts with an adult with them (this actually works for DS1 but DS2 makes it a living hell)
a points system (works a bit for DS1 but hard to keep in top of and also I don't really know how to reward for it)

Please please help. I'm desperate to be a better mum to them and I know I'm letting them down right now. Plus, I'm going insane.

Screen bans are great. So many parents let their children use ipads for ‘regulation’ or whatever, to ‘help them go to sleep’. I mean, what? I REALLY recommend a rule of ‘if you can’t sleep, read a book’. My children quickly became fluent readers and also had plenty of sleep because bedtimes were 7pm lol.

Processing issues or not, your boys have brains with infinite learning capacity. If they can learn all the pokemons off by heart, they can learn rules and routines, learn how to sit etc.

I’m actually excited for you, a new era of calm and consistency will dawn. Other parents will envy you!

Definitely stop the TV during meals.

OP, you asked about consequences/rewards, personally I found that rewards work best than punishments (ie the punishment is ‘no reward’). A few examples on top of my head:

Rewards: choice of music during meals, choice of story to be read, pants dance party (being allowed to strip down to pants and dance like a crazy person to the tune of your choice), bubbles/bath bomb in the bath, a straw to drink their water, can choose which snack they take to school (from a selection), etc

Punishments: fill up a bag of dead leaves from the garden, have to break up an Amazon box into small pieces, make everybody’s bed, have to help with laundry (carry clothes from the basket to the machine and being bored while I do the rest), dusting: have to bring back two dusting wipes full of dust (criteria for punishment: no need to supervise, clear expectation of result, they can’t create mess while doing it)

OP you have some good advice here from @OwnGravityField and others.

DS is very spirited with SEN and found mealtimes difficult to sit still but I never allowed tv or screens at dinner. Or walking around when eating! My rule is that once you get down from the table you are saying you are finished eating.
How will they ever learn to eat in a restaurant or at a friend’s house?
Also who is in charge here? If a small child can demand tv to eat dinner, or walk around holding food, then you are storing up trouble for the future when they are a big teenager and you have no authority….

You can make mealtimes more engaging by doing chats as suggested upthread (would you rather etc) or go round the table and tell an interesting fact, doesn’t matter how silly it is.

Or get one of the DCs to ‘help’ make or serve dinner (not the whole meal, just an element of it, even if it’s just adding a couple of ingredients and stirring the pot) and then give loads of praise. Or pizzas you let them add their choice of toppings.

I am also a fan of not putting all the food on their plates but getting them used to serving themselves with a selection of veg to pick from. So the meal itself becomes an activity. And can be a talking point especially if it’s something like fajitas where you they can choose to add different things to it or noodles you can add different toppings.

Consequences - for deliberately disobedient behaviour like the screaming, remove from the situation put them in their room and ignore them. Children hate being ignored especially if others are having fun.

Removal of privileges like screen time or choice of tv programme or choice of which park to go to. But keep consequences realistic, short time frame, and stick to them eg not ‘no Christmas presents’

Rewards eg a marble jar or star chart but it needs to be a short time frame, not months long.

Children are much happier when they have a structure, and when the grown-ups are in charge.

@OwnGravityFieldWe actually went all day today with no TV (and that's the only screen they have anyway, no tablets etc). They asked a few times and DS1 was disappointed at each mealtime but the kickback wasn't nearly as bad as I expected. We made up a story at breakfast, had toys at the table at lunch (probably won't do that again, too distracting), and they coloured in while eating dinner.

We also did a timeout for every time the 3 year old screamed at his dad. And for a few other things too. All in all it was an okay day, much much better than most days have been recently! There's lots more I want to implement from your advice and that of other posters but 2 things were enough for day 1 and made a big difference.

I did end up shouting at bedtime...neither would lie down to go to sleep, it went on forever and was just so stressful. Then of course we all ended up upset. So I need to think of a strategy to get through bedtimes - no rewards or consequences can be immediate enough to have any effect.

I just want to say how much I appreciate your thoughtful answers. It's very kind of you to spend the time x

Thank you for these, some great ideas I'll definitely be using x

@BeverleyBrooksthank you - some really good mealtime tips that I think might work for us and might also help two fussy eaters too.

Ironically, the boys might’ve been overtired. My midwife, many many years ago, had a theory that around half of adhd cases were due to lack of sleep because tiredness in children presents differently to adults.

You’re right to take it a step at a time.

Read calmer, easier, happier boys. It's a down to earth book with simple and practical ways to engage boys. Exercise and descriptive praise (you are sitting sensibly, you listened attentively etc) are two of the practical ways the author shows boys engage much better.

Glad to hear it's going better. For bedtime I used to find it hard to have anything that would be so immediate it would have an impact and I now have two things 1) they have a fixed amount of stories and they lose one (or can get an extra one sometimes) and 2) I leave the room. Don't know why leaving the room works, but I did it a few times when I was stressed and it calmed them down. So now I say 'if you keep behaving like that mummy will leave the room for 5 minutes' and it often calms them down, if not the 5 minutes for us both to cool off is quite helpful

Good luck with it all

Haven't rtft yet but can I recommend a book/ method that is amazing. 123 Magic. Can't remember the author. It IS magic. I did a parenting course for kids with behaviour issues and this was like the bible to them. I've heard it a few times here too. It's the most practical no nonsense approach I've ever come across and one of the only things that worked for me.

Number one is to stick to the rules you have decided upon even if it’s tough, kids respond best to consistent boundaries.

as far as meal times I’m of the opinion that everyone sits at the table together and eats, no tv? Nobody gets down until everyone has finished. It’s a time to talk about their day, talk about what’s happening more generally and talk about things coming up. I’ve done this since mine were capable of being in a high chair (six months) and both are nd (one add, one adhd) it’s non negotiable and they to this day follow my rules as adults when here.

Separating siblings where number 2 pesters number 1 is challenging, been there, but I found that I could set the eldest doing something they enjoyed then concentrate on the younger, even though I really should be doing something else, having craft stuff for instance was good when I was cooking. Having a second space eg dining table does help here.

rewards do work for most, we had the advantage of them loving books (well certainly buying them) so stars meant money towards a book, we went on Saturday if enough stars were earned (I think number 2 mostly wanted the inevitable coffee shop trip but if it works it works).

Good luck, it does pass

From what I've learned (so may not be universal):
Boys respond better to instructions when touched first (otherwise they don't know you are talking to them). Sounds daft, but works on grown men who don't pay attention too

Adhd and taking in verbal instructions is often hard so find another way to convey what you need them to do

Use positives, rather than negatives. Not in a 'everything should be positive' way, but that humans are not so good at recognising 'no' and 'don't'. So instead of 'don't do X' try 'do Y'. It's hard to remember though. Trying to think of an example. Something like instead of 'don't hit your brother' try 'be kind to your brother, hitting isn't kind'

Don't pit them against each other, you want them to be a team, not rivals

Reward charts don't work with adhders, save yourself the bother. See also punishments

Fidget toys. Everywhere. Allow at the dinner table. Also at the table, engage in engaging conversation or word games so brains and mouths are busy