Southport killer enabled by father

[crowsfeet57]

The evidence given by the school and the social worker highlighted how Axel Rudakubana's deteriorating behaviour was blamed on everyone else by his father. Now the father's own evidence is damning. surely this man should be charged as an accessory to the murders which he had many chances to prevent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c20e8qd5d53t

This is a fair comment especially if they thought the danger was in house.

I also think a lot of people have no idea what they would do in a situation until they are in it.

Things that stand out for me from reading the news

Teenager excluded from school
What happened after that ?
Seems to have been no further education , training or integration ?

Teenager had not left the home for over a year
No exercise, no hobbies, no friends, no social interaction ?

Open access to the Internet & money

Recently, I have seen adverts on my phone suggesting people could volunteer to be a mentor to a young person

Nobody can predict the future

My thoughts are with the victims

It seems that the family had issues around what was right & what was wrong

This.

My dd was also mute with anxiety and therefore classed as ‘refusing to engage’

She seriously self harmed. Because she was 16 we weren’t allowed to go to children’s A and E which had a massive support programme for self harmed/suicide attempts. But only for 15 and under.

Adult A and E stitched her up. And kicked her out. Someone was meant to phone. No one did. She was 16 1/2. No support, no joined up records. Nothing.

16-18 is the twilight zone. Not an adult not a child. So no support.

Blame the parents.
WW2 was the fault of Herr Hitler Snr.

Well, the Bible verses I quoted, in response to a PP quoting another part of the Bible, say his father should have stoned him.

But I am an atheist, so I don't subscribe to that.

However, the reports of his parents on the stand coming across as very religious do perhaps have a bearing. Maybe the parents felt that prayer would cure his son, or that some God would intervene. That could account for some of their inaction. And perhaps the contradictions in the bible, combined with very religious parents, had a negative effect on the perp.

I do not think the parents should be prosecuted. I never said that. I said I would not be able to report my child. However, I would not be trying to pray the problems away.

I feel bad for the parents.

There is clearly not a single cause

There are a combination of issues that occurred
Bad choices
Bad decisions

This is a really insightful, and accurate post. I remember trying to explain to the school senco, the family worker and CAMHS how our then 5/6yo daughter was making us so scared in our own home that we'd put locks on our bedroom doors. How she'd literally drawn blood, thrown things, kicked, bitten, scratched, punched. The Southport case is exactly why we've fought so hard for our daughter to be well supported, and not taken no for an answer. It's why we've tried so hard to research and be amateur psychologists - because no help was coming unless we found it within us to do it ourselves.

What happened in this case saw a regular, smiling schoolboy of 12 turn into a murderous monster, seemingly over the space of one summer. We have to look at the reasons for that, and all parties bear responsibility for that.

I'm only thankful that we kept battling for our daughter's mental health and we were able to understand her and support her from an early enough stage of her life to prevent her from spiralling. But we still bear the scars.

The Southport murders is incredibly sad, for everyone. The photos of those little girls - so similar to my own - will stay with me forever. They didn't need to die.

I agree. I have every sympathy with being afraid of AR, but there was zero reason why his father couldn’t have alerted the police ‘anonymously’ (ie asked them not to reveal it was him) The police could then have called round under the pretence of a follow up after the knife-carrying on the bus, or as a welfare check or anything plausible. They could then have ‘found’ the weapons.

More than that, at a meeting with a family support worker, AR’s mother actively stopped his father from revealing more information about AR. If that information had been revealed, then maybe AR wouldn’t have been signed off from CAMHs and maybe a Prevent referral would have been acted on.

So, both parents were to blame IMO. I believe the father thought AR would hurt him, but I don’t believe he thought he was the sole target. He said he warned AR’s brother not to wind him up, and he knew AR had tried to attack people at school. He also knew that AR was amassing a stash of weapons.

While I don’t think the parents were accessories, I do think they’re culpable in some way and should be charged with something.

Violent in the extreme
Manufacturing ricin
obsessed with genocide and terrorism
obsessed with online death porn
Owned Al-Qaeda manual
watching Isis execution videos
Machete delivered to home
Seems everyone around him family and services were blind deaf and dumb

Having now read accounts of the evidence given by the mother, I’m afraid I find it impossible to believe it is true.

How were her fingerprints found on the internal packaging of knives, if she had never opened their packaging? Why did her account of the bow and arrow deny that she had seen it, when her own husband claimed she had?

What are the penalties for lying to a public enquiry?

I love my sons. And if one of them was mentally disturbed, threatening, clearly seriously disordered, and buying knives, then yes, I would be reporting that fact to the police, CAMHS, social services, and my GP. And I would not stop reporting until my child was sectioned.

There is actually mental illness in my family and a family member has been sectioned in the past. I know how very very difficult it is to get help- but yes, these parents were grossly irresponsible and we should deplore them, even if failings in the law mean they cannot be punished for their inaction.

I looked up the church his parents went to, out of curiosity (I know that area a bit through family) and it really didn't have that vibe at all. It could have been my church, basically. You have to go well outside the mainstream of UK Christianity to find people who wouldn't do anything bar 'pray about it' in this situation, and I say that as someone who knows some quite conservative evangelical Christians coping with severe MH issues themselves or in their families.

But anyway, back to the actual issues.....I think the parents were themselves victims of horrible emotional and physical abuse. They were left to cope with someone who should have been in a secure institutional setting for his own wellbeing and for the safety of others. It annoys me seeing them used as punchbags. But I'm possibly sensitive having seen two different friends trying to cope with violent teens (both with autism, learning difficulties & a number of MH issues) and seeing how little support they got

The inquiry has highlighted that the parents withheld information from Cahms -
they withheld his violent behaviour
Cahms discharged him citing no risk -
that’s on the parents
when the suppprt worker attended, the mother gestured at the father to not speak / not tell them what the son is like ..
how can services for accountable when they aren’t holding all the cards ??
the family were colluding and enabling his disturbing behaviour - and they should be held accountable for that

“Left to cope ???”
they were withholding information about his violent behaviour …
they were hiding their own kitchen knives yet enabling him to have crossbow / machete, large knives etc !!!

the family were colluding and enabling his disturbing behaviour - and they should be held accountable for that

Yes, and more than that, purposely concealing his behaviours and the extent of the issues. The authorities weren’t blameless either, but if they’d had the full information, then things might have been very different.

He hadn’t left the home for 2 years !!
so all that collecting of weapons / poisons / books was going on under the parents roof / noses …
they knew

Exactly -
very, very hard for services to carry out even a basic risk assessment if the parents are with holding information-

This is really quite shocking. Initially I had a lot of sympathy for the parents, but the more I read about their behaviour - particularly the behaviour of the father - the more it diminishes. I do feel sorry for the brother having to grow up around AR, it must have been a nightmare.

While I think the parents have been serious errors and judgement - its very easy to say all this in hindsight. What the killer did was truly awful and horrific - but extremely rare - and I am not sure they would have forseen this. Also it sounds like they had it quite tough - disabled son, traumatic upbringing.

But he was no regular smiling kid -
the family had been hiding the kitchen knives for years because of his violent behaviour
unlike yourself, desperately trying to access services for your DD, they were doing the opposite - keeping services at arms length, minimising and enabling the purchasing of an arsenal of weaponary -
this is not an example of an autistic child being let down by services (of which there are many, sadly) this is an example of a family not allowing services to do the basics -

But it wasn’t even hindsight that gave them clarity …
the minute the father heard of the appalling incident, he said knew it would be his son !!!
what parent would think that if they didn’t have a very clear idea about the severity of this child’s disturbing personality???

I don’t know.
Ive just read through the transcripts on the BBC. It seems to say that 2 days before his brother sent a message to his friend that his dad had warned him his brother could kill him. It also sounds like he hadn’t been out alone for a long time prior to that day.
His parents sound evasive and passive.
Surely, if you know you have a child with escalating violence, housing weapons and you have gone to the lengths of warning your own son, you question him when he is seen leaving the house.
Clearly, there are so many things that could have been done differently in the run up to those horrifying events. By his parents and others.

But the father was obstructive of authority. It wasn’t just about him not reporting the knives. I have read through the transcripts and he clearly excused and minimised his son’s behaviour. When his son was set detentions he said the school was picking on him. When Childline contacted the police he complained about breach of confidentiality! I am sorry but if your child is carrying knives and threatening to kill people there is no confidentiality. The father shouted at the police. He did not tell CAMHS about the knives.

He undermined authority, and then wondered why he had no control over his son at home. The son learned that his actions did not have consequences because Dad would back him up anyway.

I understand that Dad had experienced trauma in Rwanda, but in that case he should have allowed the professionals freedom to intervene with his son and been more honest.

I agree. The parents obstructed, complained about and hid things from the services trying to help even though they knew he was dangerous. I don’t believe they should face criminal charges but I hope to see them accept some responsibility for their failures towards their own child and all too sadly, other people’s children.

Legally people aren't responsible NOW for their relatives' crimes, but PP said they should be forced to prove they aren't Not responsible. I wondered why stop that "principle" at parent-child relationship.

Would be very logical for people to stop having kids, to avoid the you-are-guilty-until-proven-innocent if your-relative-committed-a-crime penalties. I guess then all the people could work until they actually dropped .... or society could import people age 16-64 to be the working age population.

Very logical indeed !!!
darn, now the laws changed, I shan’t be answering my noise of my biological clock and having children … I might give birth to a mass murderer !!!

thats bonkers !!

the parents :
argued with the school trying to discipline him
withheld info to Cahms and social services
were obstructive and intimidating to services
allowed the son to assemble an arsenal of weapons - which they paid for, accepted at the door and allowed his access to
they immediately knew it was him when the news broke of the murders
they knew exactly what he was and did nothing