'Dictating' and 'blackmailing' about PIL's dog

[GigglingSquiddling]

Me and DH have 2 kids, aged 18m and 3 years. My PIL live about 90 minutes away from us and have asked if we would like to spend Christmas with them this year. They have a big breed dog which is untrained, boisterous and has been known to snap/bite both dogs and people. He's only 3 but being a big breed still acts very puppy-like. He's drawn blood from my FIL multiple times.

We have said we are only comfortable visiting if the dog is muzzled or locked in a different room for the duration of our visit. PILs have refused, saying this isn't fair on the dog and they don't believe in muzzling as it's cruel. They think he's a big softie and "he's only snapped a few times, it's not like he's an aggressive dog"- their words not mine. They think it's our responsibility to keep our children away from the dog. While I don't disagree, this doesn't sound like a pleasant visit as we would constantly be hovering, especially over the youngest who isn't old enough to understand to stay away.

We've just said it doesn't sound like this set up works right now so maybe it's best left until the kids are a bit older. We are now being accused of dictating what PILs do in their own house, and blackmailing them by withholding access to their grandchildren if they refuse to 'bow to our demands'.

Are we being unreasonable? I'm not anti-dog, we have a dog but he is smaller, well trained and very quiet and soft with the kids. I have no issue locking him in the kitchen or garden if friends come round who aren't keen on dogs.

I mean… your eldest is 3 and the dog is 3. If they went and got a large breed puppy around the time that you had your first baby I’m not sure why they’d think the grandchildren would be able to run and play at their house? Of course the dog would have to be confined somewhere. Even without the aggression it’s not safe to allow a large dog around children that age simply because they often plow them over and step on them.

Out of curiosity, what sort of dog is it?

Dog owner here (well trained dogs). I would not take my young children into that situation. Heaven forbid the worst happened but if it did you wouldn’t be able to live with it.
It sounded like the poor baby in South Wales was at their grandparents home when the dog reacted to fireworks and killed the baby.
Dramatic? Perhaps I am but if you stay at home you are 100% certain your young ones are safe. If the in laws can’t see that they are dicks.
I wouldn’t want to muzzle /stick in a crate/ shut in another room my dogs for longer than say 30 minutes but would respect potential visitors feeling that wouldn’t work for them.

YANBU - at all. If they don't want to follow your conditions, thats absolutely fine, they don't have to. The consequence is you don't visit. It is entirely their choice.

I don't shut my dogs away for visitors who are coming to spend the day - its my dogs home, it causes upset and isn't necessary (they don't bite or jump all over people). I do put them away for short term visitors coming to do a thing then leave, they've no need to meet/greet delivery people, trades people, District Nurses etc (though two DN's who come here won't leave until they've had a fuss and do me last in their rounds so they can do that!)...

But I accept if I won't put them away for a long period, some people may not visit - that is fine by me! I can visit them, or just not bother. Not a big deal.

As far as the blackmail claim is concerned, I'd simply say that their choice to get a dog was a lifestyle choice and they have to ensure that the dog doesn't inconvenience or bite people.

It's not your job to accommodate the dog, it's their job to accommodate their grandchildren. Safely. If they don't want to do that, actions have consequences.

There's no way I would have a bitey dog in my house or visit a house where one lived. I am not sure I'd even want to go out for a walk with one. Bitey dogs need to be retrained and/or kept away from people (and other dogs).

I agree with PIL that's it's unkind to lock the dog away in its own home. However, it's their responsibility to provide sufficient training so that the dog isn't a nuisance or a liability and based on your post the dog appears to be both. Frankly if they don't address the issues of snapping/biting it's only a matter of time before they end up in court. This dog isn't puppy biting, he's a young adult and there's a limited time period for removing entrenched behaviours. He needs training classes, urgently. In the meantime, you are wise not to expose your children to the risk of being snapped at or bitten. YANBU.

I own a large breed (45+ kg) he's 8 years old, and he can be a bit grumpy at times, I know my dog, I know his body language

I have a friend with a 5 year old, she loves dogs, she loves their dog, an elderly chi/pug mix but there's no way that I will have them visit. I'll lift her up to say hi to him through a half open window if I pop round and he's on a harness in the back of the car. I have a responsibility to people who enter my house, he's great with teens and adults but young children is a no no

It's a shame that the situation has come to this but they need to take responsibility

Just dont go.

There should be zero contact between the dog and your kids.
I wouldnt have them in the same property and i own dogs and have an 18m and 3 yo.

"GP you can come to ours, we can go to parks, restaurants, cafes, softplay etc
You can see your GC as much as you want but not in your home if your dog is there..he's bitten FIL repeatedly we dont want to take the risk with our children.
We arent restricting access but we have a responsibilty to keep them safe"

Your PIL are being ridiculous and frankly unhinged for putting their own GC at risk.
I have a very large breed dog and when we have guests I either put him in boarding (e.g. if elderly parents coming) or do very careful introductions and reminders as to how to behave if he's being a twit (ignore, don't approach, don't stroke and don't even look at him until he's stopped barking). That's only with guests who like dogs and want to be with him though.
My boy would not nip or bite but he's huge and looks very menacing when barking at you. He's not in charge though and he would be swiftly put in another room if it continued. My DH may then go and sit with the dog instead of the guests, but that's just a bonus for him.😆

Stay at home and ignore the complaints.

"FIL, the dog bit you hard enough to draw blood and you're an adult, and his owner. My children are tiny strangers. Do you never watch the news? Of course it's not blackmail to suggest there could be a risk, it's just being responsible."

If what you're doing is blackmail then so is what they're doing! How is you saying you want your kids to be safe blackmail any more than them saying they won't muzzle their dog? They are emotionally blackmailing you into doing something you feel is unsafe purely because they like the idea of it.

Edit: I meant to quote OP's earlier post asking how to respond when FiL accuses them if blackmail

You don't have to respond to those exact words. Keep the discussion on safety, being responsible etc.

There is a lot of power in meetings in the person who sets the agenda. Don't accept the conversation going down the blackmail line, keep it on what you want it to be about. Easier said than done, I know, but just the idea is a start.

It's a bit like the advice to keep repeating the same phrase using the same words.

YANBU AT ALL

My MIL had a lovely little dog, and we lived with her for a while when DS1 was a toddler, and we were all very careful about him around the dog, because the dog was a dog, and he was a toddler and mixing the two un-supervised is a recipe for something nasty happening to one or the other.

And that was a small, good-natured dog who mainly wanted to just hang out on the settee and watch TV with FIL.

A boisterous large breed? No way, not with toddlers who aren't used to dogs, and a dog that's not used to toddlers, and who has snapped at its owners already.

Send them pics of toddlers in the news post ddog attack..sorry ils but we value dc more than risking this.

They want their GC to be able to go round to their house and run around and play which you've said you are ok with if their dangerous dog is muzzled.

You have also told them they are welcome to visit at your house without the dog.

Maintain your boundaries op. Would you let them take DC in a car without a car seat? No, because the car seat protects them in the event of an accident. They won't protect DC by muzzling their dangerous dog, so you have to protect them by refusing the visit to their home. Simple as.

As a parent your number 1 job is protecting your children. Everything else is secondary. Don’t worry about the blackmail argument. It’s utterly irrelevant. As I said you’d be morally and possibly legally culpable should you give in and the worst happen. You know the dog has drawn blood already from someone he presumably thinks is a higher ranking member of his pack, not a small invader of a creature prone to sudden movements and to making loud voices!

You won’t always agree with nor can you ever please everyone. Do what your common sense and parental instincts dictate.

PIL sound like a couple of morons and shouldn't have a big dog they refuse to train. Stay at home and enjoy a nice Christmas OP.

@GigglingSquiddling yes, it is your responsibility to keep the children away from the dog. 90 minutes away, safely and in their own home.

You can't just bung a muzzle on a dog.it requires muzzle training. And a muzzled dog should not be left unsupervised.i think what you've said to them about it currently not working for you, is perfectly reasonable. What's stopping them coming to you to see the grandchildren?

YADNBU
I'm a massive dog lover, and I think your PILs are clueless.

Unless PIL are willing to keep the dog securely shut in another room, and muzzled, don't go.
The FIL has already been injured. This is not a well trained, well behaved dog. A good dog owner would not put any child's safety at risk.
You will be putting your children's safety at risk. Could you live with the consequences if the dog harms your children?
You are NOT being unreasonable to expect PIL to put their GC first.
It seems they are the ones trying to guilt trip you.

Are they usually reasonable people? I'm a huge dog lover but it's completely unreasonable to expect people to bring very small children into the company of a dog that has a history of biting. It's like expecting you to be comfortable with boiling hot liquids perched in grabbing distance of your children all over the house. Such a risk of permanent disfigurement should you take your eyes off them for a second! You'd never forgive yourself.
It would be very wrong to put your kids in either situation.
I'm guessing your PIL had kids in the 80s where everyone just seemed to cross their fingers and hope for the best.

Well that is their problem, not yours. Be firm and stick to your guns. Ignore the blackmail. Tell them if they think you’re being unreasonable to talk to a dog trainer for their opinion.

Absolutely not unreasonable!! They can fuck right off

@GigglingSquiddling you just respond with a clear and concise message that says we don't feel that it is safe for our children to be around a dog that is uncontrollable and has already bitten others. Not sure why that wouldn't be easy to do?

Any dog can snap and harm a child but those dogs actually have a track record. You’d be crazy to go imo so are absolutely doing the right thing. I can’t believe they don’t see that. They also need to train their dogs.