Middle class people and Labour/Lib Dem voters are particularly disapproving of flag flyers

[EddyF]

Do you agree with this?

Class is a key distinction, with middle class people (those in the ABC1 social category) being more likely to disapprove of someone flying a flag than working class people (those in the C2DE category).

One third of middle class people (37%) disapprove of at least one of the flags listed being flown, compared to 23% of working class people.
The biggest difference comes over the English flag, which 30% of middle class people would judge someone negatively for flying compared to 16% of working class people.

Labour and Lib Dem voters are also much more likely to hold unfavourable views of those flying of England and UK flags than their Conservative counterparts.

Three in ten Labour voters (31%) and four in ten Lib Dem voters (42%) have an unfavourable view of someone flying the England flag. Among Conservative voters this figure is only 16%.
Likewise, 26% of Labour voters and 30% of Lib Dem voters have an unfavourable view of someone flying the Union Jack, compared to just 12% of Conservative voters.

@hairbearbunches

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. If the liberal left had spent as much effort pushing for better things for the working class as they do for minority groups, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in. The middle class absolutely loathe the working class for the most part. I know someone who is heavily invested in diversity in the workplace and spends much of her time championing black and asian kids. The trouble is the kids she champions are all middle class like her, have been to good schools and have already got very decent prospects. She would no more give a leg up to a white working class kid than she would eat a plate of dog shit. I think the liberal left have a lot to answer for when it comes to where we've ended up as a country.

I agree that the left hasn't done itself any favours. It's been directionless and preoccupied with some fringe fantasies which have made it look rhetorically vacuous for many years. I think the middle classes have distrusted the working classes for centuries, that's in part the whole point of the middle class, but there's nothing new here.

But the elephant in the room here is the economy. The Tommy Robinson/Reform tendency wouldn't exist if the economy in this country were thriving and we were a country in growth mode with a sense of a future: a proper economic revival would suck all the wind out of their sails. The primary reason the British economy is in a terminal nosedive is Brexit, the very thing that the far right most wanted and most agitated for. I know it's bad form to say that on here but it's true and we all know it.

So no I don't buy the idea that the liberal left has brought this on. During the Blair years people were perfectly comfortable with multiculturalism and tolerance because the economy was thriving, there were jobs, there was money going into the NHS etc. Nobody really gives a shit if some well-meaning liberal does some silly diversity initiatives in a growing economy; there's enough to go around. They mind when the pie is shrinking and people feel they are fighting for scraps and resent the perception that certain groups get handouts.

Middle class liberals tend to get blamed for everything by the right and far right by default and they've certainly been silly, self-indulgent and unable to argue a coherent story. But the bottom line is the far right has brought this economic disaster on itself.

@Thepeopleversuswork So no I don't buy the idea that the liberal left has brought this on. During the Blair years people were perfectly comfortable with multiculturalism and tolerance because the economy was thriving, there were jobs, there was money going into the NHS etc. Nobody really gives a shit if some well-meaning liberal does some silly diversity initiatives in a growing economy; there's enough to go around. They mind when the pie is shrinking and people feel they are fighting for scraps and resent the perception that certain groups get handouts.

I still don't think this is correct. During the Blair years, the economy worked for the middle class and they ignored much of what was staring them in the face. Nothing changed under Blair for the working class, industry was still hollowed out, there was no meaningful industrial strategy to upskill our own kids. A lot of what Blair did was nothing more than smoke and mirrors but because those who already had assets saw their houses prices rise stratospherically, that counted as a 'thriving economy'. Blair's time in power was thoroughly wasted and he sold this country very cheaply.

I don’t think it’s the entire picture either. The lead up to Brexit was happening during that time, Brown stumbled on that issue when he got caught on mic.

The ‘rub their faces in diversity’ line too. It’s not a good idea to actively piss off the public for no reason, it tends to bite.

@Thepeopleversuswork couldn’t agree more, £400 billion spaffed down the drain for no real gain whatsoever and has left the gvt funds short of cash for any ‘positive’ things. It also made the country pretty much uninvestible in for many multinationals unless their UK market was big enough in its own right, so yes whilst Brexit might appeal to Jim the plumber who has seen some competition leaving the country and might be getting better rates, or those with off shore money trying to keep it that way for tax reasons, it has blasted the general economy with a downturn - Sunak called an early election because he know once the covid issue settled ( and that’s another issue with poor handling of it financially) he knew that the chickens were coming home to roost - same with the boats issue post Brexit - have a look at figures pre Brexit , a huge difference because their were more controls in place which were EU policy . I will however mention poor long term planning right since the 80s - the decline of traditional industry’s mean you have to plan for ‘alternative’ income streams for those in areas most affected- be that relocating some government departments or setting up new ones if necessary - it’s particularly bad in towns that were dominated by certain industries- now defunct. I do feel far too much EU money went to ‘some’ of the big city’s ( and not London) and not enough into mid sized towns suffering this issue- personally I don’t think if we at least joined the EEA a lot of people would give a shit that voted for it - many know it hasn’t worked, they just don’t like looking that they were taken for fools by Farage and certain Tory’s . Tge fact that so many would still vote for Farage I don’t think is down to the Brexit thing , I think it’s purely on immigration, the ‘woke’ thing , the fact the economy feels like shit ( even though not helped by their vote) and the fact he’s promising things that he can’t remotely deliver.

@Crikeyalmighty same with the boats issue post Brexit - have a look at figures pre Brexit , a huge difference because their were more controls in place which were EU policy .

We've got approximately 900,000 undocumented migrants in this country (I think the figure is higher than this actually and the figure doesn't include the asylum seekers currently waiting to be assessed), and they came in somehow. The boats weren't a thing back then, but the backs of lorries definitely were. That method has all but been shut down but it wasn't uncommon to be driving along one of the motorways in Kent and see a foreign artic pull over and people get out of the back.

You took the words out of my mouth. It's true that the liberal left ( not very left btw) uses fringe issues to disguise its failure at its primary task - to improve the Material conditions of the working class.

But it is also the case that a major cause of that failure is Brexit. The cause that dare not speak its name. Since , one way or another , all the parties shat the bed on this issue.

The voting patterns here are replicated in a fair few EU countries though. This is a wider issue than just here.

Just to add...we must give Blair / Brown some credit for taking the edge off Thatcherism I suppose.

Education is the biggest prediction of political division in Britain Degrees-of-separation-November-2023.pdf

@hairbearbunches I don’t disagree with that - we lived in Canterbury right till 2012 - indeed lots of the good folk enabling this were it turns out Kent and Essex based bad lots -and in all fairness the Tory’s were in power for a very long time at that point and didn’t get a grip on it because they couldn’t be arsed to actually staff things appropriately and pay people to be out there checking on the black market economy, thoroughly checking at the ports etc - - we lived in Denmark from 2020 to 2022 - obviously ‘in the EU’ but they were ‘mega hot’ on this kind of thing - so it was doable -

it wasn’t implemented here as they prioritised austerity and getting Farage off their backs and hence we end up with things as they are now combined with the fact some of the mechanisms are no longer straight forward for the more recent cases- due to Brexit -

It's not the flag we object to it's the reason many people fly it'. Is is obvious that in many cases it is done to make non white people feel unwelcome and threatened .

I'm WC and I hate the flags. Because my WC community is diverse and multi cultural and I hate to see how hurt and afraid my friends and colleagues are by what they represent. I also hate that they've given people something else to blame WC people for. We are now the face of racism for one side whilst being weaponised by the racists on the other.

Yep if it’s for jubilees or kings birthday ( not that I’m a royalist) or last night of the proms or olympics etc it’s totally different to being all over motorways or wherever for no good reason at all-

year on year the availability of site labour has reduced to the point we are paying more for site labourers than we are for construction professionals

You seem to think there’s some relation between the supply of labour and its cost. But that it only works in one direction?

Was there any particular event that constricted supply of labour in construction and fruit-picking in recent years that might give us a clue as to wage effects of migration?

The evidence suggests that wage effects of migration are not massive overall, but they are real, and they are concentrated in specific sectors, and amongst the low-wage.

Maybe Kevin with his five GCSEs isn’t an easily-led simpleton, he’s just read the research more discerningly. Or might understand his position better than you understand it.

Source is round about you love.
Get your nose out social media and take a look at the world about you.

I think you'll find the no.1 source of flag stories is the right wing propaganda machine of GB News.

Of course if the right whinge didn't keep overreacting to the sight of different coloured skin there'd be no reason for GB News to constantly run such stories.

I’m middle class and I’m very much in favour of flying the English flag. It isn’t racist to fly our countries flag, we’re English after all.

But I’m not a Labour voter, nor am I in favour of Lib Dem so I guess I’m the minority!

Source?

I do hate the lack of nuance in this topic though. I don’t think many people object to flag flying. They are objecting to what they see as the intent behind it.

Nobody says anything when the Euros / World Cup is one and their are English flags everywhere.

It's not the flag we object to it's the reason many people fly it'

^^ THIS!

Can you use the correct term please
’Flag Shaggers’

Could you write that again, but in English this time.

OP gives very specific numbers rather than anecdotes, these usually come with a source, which would be interesting to look at.
I'm not sure why you are being a knob about this, but I hope you feel better soon.

Kind of a good example of my point.

News stories about flags have been on every news outlet. But the sense that you can't fly an England flag without being called racist probably comes more from social media posts like yours.

When someone you strongly disagree with insults you, do you think "I should change my views so that person likes me more" or do you think "F them, I'm going to do the thing that annoys them even more".?

Very interesting I wonder if you get similiar results if you look at it from a point of education.

Totally agree. It’s a dead cert indicator of a deprived area. I think it’s naive to pretend the flags are about mere patriotism but the middle classes also cannot ignore the strength of feeling in ‘flag’ areas. Thats how we sleepwalked into Brexit!