AIBU to feedback to school about teachers use of glottal stops

[TalomaPaith]

Children at Dcs school are split into different groups for phonics.

Parents are sometimes invited to watch lessons. I observed a lesson by a teacher using glottal stops I.e Let'er instead of letter.

Would IBU to mention this?

I think the " "essex " accent you refer to may have been the speech brought in with the incoming Londoners over the years, But there's a lot of difference between basildon and north rural Essex accents for example.

Strangely enough my Essex born and bred son was told at uni that he sounded " posh"

This link is for water, not letter, but you can hear two British speakers use a glottal stop instead of the t sound, while the Irish speakers pronounce the r sound at the end of the word. (Most of the Americans do too I’d think, though I didn’t listen to them all.)

https://forvo.com/word/water/

sorry, QED what exactly? You’ve just stated the phonetic transcriptions in standard Received Pronunciation of the words letter and father to prove….what? We know that’s how a standard English accent would pronounce them, our disagreement is that that is the only acceptable way to pronounce them.

is your position that any other pronunciation of these words is incorrect and/or unclear?

for example: lɛɾər ? Or ˈfaːrðər ?

@Somethingontheroof , none of those used a glottal stop.

@queenmeadhbh , is your position that any other pronunciation of these words is incorrect and/or unclear?
I think you are unable to grasp that it shows that there is a t sound in 'letter', and that the r in 'farther' may or may not be sounded.

I don't care if someone says farther as farver, but I'd mind if my child's teacher did, just like I'd mind if they said shjremf or bockle.

Bye!

It shows that there is a t sound in letter in a standard RP English accent. There is no “may” or “may not” about these standard transcriptions because they do not list all possible pronunciations in all possible accents of English speakers.

there is not a T when I say it but that is perfectly correct. lɛɾər.

there is not a T when I say it but that is perfectly correct. lɛɾər.
You're flogging a dead horse with that one.

none of those used a glottal stop
https://forvo.com/word/water

I’m very much prepared to be corrected @YYYDlilah, but what about the fifth speaker and the twenty-fifth?🤔 Have I got this wrong? There isn’t a glottal stop in water where I am so I’m prepared to be told I’m not hearing it ‘right’, but they sound like glottal stops to me.

you: this phonetic transcription shows that pronouncing a letter with a “t” sound is correct. QED.
me: there is not a “t” sound when I say letter, but that is still correct.
you: something about a dead horse.

i think you believe that the standard transcription is the only correct way to say it. In which case, that’s where I disagree and believe your position is classist and discriminatory.

@Somethingontheroof , #5 is a glottal stop. The others aren't.

@queenmeadhbh , I disagree and believe your position is classist and discriminatory.
I have no idea what class you are, or why it would be discriminatory.
You have no idea what class I am or where I am from.

You are saying that lɛɾər is a correct pronunciation of letter. Add it to How to pronounce letter in English - Definition and synonyms of letter in English

Because it’s only correct if it appears on forvo.com?!! you know that is not a full validated list of all possible ways to say words, it’s just an example bank?

in any case, the American pronunciation is pretty close to lɛɾər - just slightly less tapped on the middle consonant.

on the water link a PP posted, number 6 is exactly the way I say it.

if you’re saying that only accents featured on forvo.com are acceptable, then you’ve really just lost hold on reality.

On class and discrimination: insisting that certain accents are correct and others incorrect is classist. It doesn’t matter what you think of me - value judgements on accents are inherently discriminatory, particularly as you are saying that you don’t want people with certain speech features to teach your children.

You’re right about the 25th as well - sounds Ulster to me, like how my husband says it, with a glottal stop in the middle.

It's usually done when appropriate to make a point, not when the effect is to completely undermine one.

She’s not.

Unless you disagree with researchers at Cambridge who found that what laypersons dismiss as “sloppy” pronunciation actually follows complex constraint hierarchies maintained consistently across speakers, regions, and generations, showing far more linguistic sophistication than random “sound-dropping.”

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/english-today/article/abs/perceptions-of-tglottalling-among-adolescents-in-south-east-england/F2F4FB1DB3D52CDF80F9240C7558DF59

I hear a T sound in #25.

@MayWelland , you are saying that lɛɾər is a correct pronunciation of letter?

Come, now, that’s not what I said.

@MayWelland you're missing context though. Teachers have gone to university and during or on another course specifically learned how to teach phonics. So they should know better

Here’s lɛɾər

https://voca.ro/167qdh4f7Nb0

@queenmeadhbh , that is not lɛɾər.

Of course. At your DC's school, parents are invited to watch and ultimately make judgements on the lessons observed, which isn't allowed, but you (individually) happen to have QTS, so the whole thing is fine and I must be wrong.

Tbh I think YOU are missing the context. I hate arguing with strangers on the internet, as we both clearly have more important things to do than be annoyed with someone we’ve never met and are never likely to meet but, since we’re here….

Firstly, the OP, who flounced after her horrible, nasty comment that showed her true colours (and it’s since been deleted, but for those who wondered, she insinuated that someone who disagreed with her on glottal stops was actually on benefits, so that’s… nice) was clear that the le-uh word was not being taught/coded/instructed in phonics.

Secondly, your argument is that the glottal stop is poor enunciation. I’m arguing that it’s not. It’s part of regional dialect. (And to be clear, I don’t use glottal stops and don’t actually love the sound of them, so I have no skin in that game).

The reason I’m being so vociferous is that I do have a non-RP accent: I’m Northern Irish living in England and have experienced consistent and quite nasty accent bias. The idea that there is a ‘correct’ accent has consistently been debunked by researchers and linguists, and yet it persists. And as you can see from the Sutton Trust report, the effects on social mobility of this type of bias are debilitating and quite sad.

Your argument above that rhotic accents are fine but glottal stops are poor enunciation, not accent, have been debunked above.

Yes, it is. Middle consonant is a voiced flap.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping

Couldn’t agree more.

The example didn't sound like flapping.
Explain why you accuse me of being classist and discriminatory.