To think that the law needs changing about right to protect yourself.

[NumbFeeling]

Things are getting out of hand in the country, and the level of violence and sexual assaults is out of control.

AIBU to think that the law needs changing about how we can defend ourselves? For example, if we were allowed to carry pepper sprays someone may have been able to stop further stabbings last night.

I’m not talking about carrying weapons, I’m talking about something that would immobile a killer, which doesn’t maim them. I don’t understand why they aren’t legal TBH.

Police arrive after an attack. Incidents aren’t being prevented, so at the time it’s you against an armed person, and you have no chance.

Things are out of control now, and I think we need to be able to at least have a chance.

AIBU to say we should be allowed to carry pepper sprays or similar?

All the people saying women should learn self defence are deluded.

I remember a post where a woman who was a police officer said her husband easily overpowered her despite all her defence and restraint training. A couple of hours of controlled grappling in a gym is just going to give women a false sense of security that they’d be able to fight off a man who was attacking her.
As @Isheagrump said, the best thing to do is shout and try and run away.

Would have been more impressive if proactive policing had prevented this from happening at all.

You realise that many of the staff stopping the mental health services from falling even further are IMMIGRANTS?

Mental health services have been shit for a long time (my personal experience goes back 25 years), where is your source that its because of immigration?

Oh, I didn't realise you had an insider knowledge of what instigated this attack. How would the police have prevented it?

That’s fine but a bit harder if they are holding a knife at you.

I feel like this is the real story of the whole situation. I don't want to be Pollyanna-ish about something that was really dreadful but because literally everyone did their jobs brilliantly - above and beyond in some cases - it sounds like no one is going to have died in what could have been an horrendous loss of life.

There's a lot of moaning usually about train drivers wages and rail crew striking to protect jobs, but sounds like they were all absolutely invaluable in an emergency. The police and rail workers stopped the incident in less than 15 minutes and kept hundreds of people safe, because they were trained professionals doing their jobs. I don't know why anyone's take away is that we need to arm the public - which would probably have led to absolutely chaos and more people being injured (that poor chap who got arrested and then released, for example).

It’s good to know how to defend yourself but most important to stay calm, cool and collected - and that’s far more difficult.

All these people saying I’d do this and I’d do that - you don’t have a clue how you’d react until you’re actually in that situation.

Thankfully the train crew, driver and police did know how to act calmly, decisively and professionally.

But if there had been officers on the train it wouldn't have taken 8 minutes.

So yes, we need more police.

People did carry knives - the Teddy Boys etc, it's always been a male violence go to weapon.

However now we have venues posting "events" on line where anyone can see there will/won't be adequate security. If you hold something in a residential home for an MP and post it all over the social media platforms, you will attract people from all backgrounds. I'm not saying this is the fault of the venue for promoting it but really we need to be more aware that not everyone will see "children's event" and think positively, particularly if they have mental health issues or violent tendencies. It used to be you'd only see these events on a local notice board or on the school newsletter, so you'd be fairly sure of the crowd likely to attend.

The only reason this was so catastrophic as a violent event was that it was on an enclosed train, or people would have run away.

Stop minimising what is actually happening and trying to gaslight everyone.

Officers on trains would be great. In an ideal world. How would that work in practise though?
I mean, think of all the hundreds of trains running every day. How would you know which trains to put officers on, it'd be a logistical nightmare to put officers on every single train "just in case."
You'd need hundreds (thousands?!)
Where would you even begin to get that amount of extra police to sit on trains?

What's "actually happening" in your opinion?

Still waiting on your source of evidence that mental health services are below standard because of "immigration" btw.

Without proper training, trying to prevent a stabbing with pepper spray could make things a lot worse.

So is deep heat spray.

So multiple officers on every train? Just in case?

Bit more believable that you might need to do your hair during the day though versus requiring help with a muscle injury
But both would be fine, I’m sure

The Person is of No fixed abode and is highly likely to have taken some dodgy substances leading to a psychotic episode
We don’t need more place we need more mental health support, To deal with the homeless problem to remove the need to go on the rampage with a knife to get locked up for the rest of your life. Which probably seemed like a better alternative than spending another winter on the streets

YABU. The problem is that the people you would want to carry weapons won't. The people you wouldn't want to carry weapons will.

Scared, insecure teenage boys who think they have to use them when they've been 'disrespected'.

Also, large man is likely to just overpower me, take my knife and stab me with it.

If anything we need more police.

I'm severely allergic to Deep Heat, so I'd rather be able to carry pepper spray than deep heat spray. I gather pepper spray does no longterm damage, even if it gets in eyes. Is that the same for most people with deep heat? It seems somewhat arbitrary to have banned it, when you consider all the toxic chemicals that are perfectly legal.

Has it not got you thinking about what you carry with you? It reminded me that when I worked in Sudan we had the most amazing first aid kits. I think there could well be value in carrying a small self-protection / first aid kit with you at all times. I carry two epipens anyway, so I always have a bag.

I carry a small can of red spray in my dog walking bag. If it buys me time to get myself and my dogs away from an attack or stop my dogs from being grabbed then i'll use it.
Not sure if it will work in practice but it will also cover them in red so they're easily identifiable for a couple of days.

Yes. Thats sort of how policing works.

Officers presence deters crime.

Keep up.

According to Google, approximately 24,000 train services run in the UK on a daily basis. Some of those, of course, will be the same service going backwards and forwards from the same destination but if we’re proposing to put police officers on every train, how is that (a) even going to be possible and (b) funded.

Chiseltip will be right back with the calculations. Keep up

FWIW, I asked Google a very simplistic question

"how much would it cost to put police on every passenger train in the uk?"

And this is what their AI Overview came back with : -

AI Overview

The estimated annual cost to put one police officer on every passenger train simultaneously operating across the UK would be approximately
£7.7 billion, with initial setup and recruitment costs likely adding several billion pounds more.

Breakdown of Costs

The massive cost stems from the vast number of officers and significant associated expenses required for a continuous, nationwide deployment.

Number of Trains: Around 18,000 passenger trains run daily across the UK rail network. While not all run at the exact same moment, peak times see a substantial number of simultaneous services. Assuming an average of approximately 5,000 to 7,500 trains are in operation at any given moment across the 24-hour cycle (accounting for peaks, off-peaks, and night closures for maintenance), an equal number of police officers would be needed for a single shift. To provide 24/7 coverage, this would require at least 4 shifts worth of officers to cover different times and rest days. This means a standing force of approximately 20,000 to 30,000 new British Transport Police (BTP) officers would be needed in total.

Cost per Officer: The full economic cost of employing a police officer (including salary, pension contributions, National Insurance, equipment, support staff, and overheads) is substantial. The City of London Police reported an average full economic cost of £105,752 per officer per year in 2023/24. Other estimates for basic salary and associated costs range from £50,000 to over £60,000 annually per officer.

Total Annual Operating Cost: Based on the estimated number of officers required (20,000 to 30,000) and an average all-inclusive annual cost of approximately £100,000 per officer, the annual operating cost would range from £2 billion to £3 billion just for salaries and direct overheads. When factoring in the entire 24/7 operational requirement and logistics, the real annual cost is likely much higher, reaching the multiple billions figure.

Initial Costs: This figure does not include the significant one-off costs of recruitment, vetting, and initial training for tens of thousands of new officers, which can add substantial further expense (one estimate puts the cost to train a single officer via a specific program at around £210,000 over three years).

For comparison, the entire annual budget for the British Transport Police force in 2021/22 was approximately £328.1 million, for a force of around 3,113 officers. The proposed initiative would represent a massive expansion of this budget and force size.