Ban male nursery workers?

[BluntPlumHam]

I came across this article which has left me quite sick.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cze665j2y51o.amp

Said 18 year old was newly qualified nursery worker who’d SA’d and raped 3 year olds.

Nurseries are desperate for workers and I have noticed through friends and families that there is now an increasing number of men entering the profession.

Men traditionally haven’t performed this role and I often find it difficult to envisage what attracts a male to this profession to begin with when we have so many instances of men who run away from childcare responsibilities.

Although men entering the profession can be a positive outcome the other very concerning outcome and on the potential rise is this.

Sex offenders will target this profession no doubt as it gives them easy access to children.

men are significantly more likely than women to sexually assault children.
Official statistics consistently show that the vast majority of individuals convicted of, or reported for, child sexual abuse (CSA) are male. For example:

• In the year ending March 2019, the Crime Survey for England and Wales found that 92% of adults who reported experiencing CSA said the perpetrator was male only.
• In 2022/23, almost 99% of individuals convicted of child sexual abuse offences in the UK were men.
• Reports to the Australian Royal Commission by victims and survivors of institutional abuse revealed that 93.9% of the abuse was perpetrated by an adult man.

So just a blanket ban on them all together ?

It isn’t my personal opinion but I do think we ought to have measures in place to make nurseries more secure and safer. This thread is to invite discussion.

Also, kudos to those brave little 3 year olds who had the courage to tell their parents because they’ve saved a lot of potential victims in the future. My thoughts and wishes for a life time of healing for them and theirs.

What about male teachers?

@Adimack yes just ignore, you know the truth! Congrats on all your achievements-those are what matters from real people who know you not judgy people on mumsnet who don't.

The worst teachers I ever had were women, not abusive or anything but quite cruel to me. One told me off for crying with stomach ache-I was 5 or 6 and in pain, but apparently I was annoying her...Another hoisted me up off the ground by the back of my jumper and told me off for something totally minor in reception-I still struggle to believe that happened but I remember it did.

Yeah they sucked, I bet they think kids don't remember stuff like that, but we do. In fact it's the ONLY thing I remember about those teachers. I think we need better vetting for those working with children and the vulnerable, it doesn't matter who it is male or female-the vetting clearly isn't good enough right now.

Pure misandry.

Motivated by what though? This is the concern

I think I saw a car analogy earlier.

Let's imagine you are ten times more likely to be injured in an accident in a red car than a white car.

It does not mean white cars represent zero risk. Of course people get injured in white cars too. It also doesn't mean that all red cars will cause the occupants to be hurt. Neither changes the fact that the risk is much greater in the red cars.

Should we take all red cars off the road? Perhaps. We certainly shouldn't be actively encouraging people to choose red cars over white ones. We should also put some serious resources into working out what the fuck is wrong with red cars.

I don't think all cctv systems can be hacked "easily". I think if an abuser is going to go to the lengths of hacking into a properly passworded system, possibly with off site real time backup, then they're going to abuse somehow. I don't see that kind of very minority activity as any justification for banning all men from early years education/care.

I assume that the majority of men in early years work are motivated by exactly the same things as the women. Why wouldn't they be, and why would you assume anything else? Most men are not abusers.

You might just as well question why a woman wants to be a car mechanic or a civil engineer.

I'm afraid the statistics and facts disagree with your feelings.

It has nothing to do with you as a person, and frankly it's strangely egotistical for you to be making it all about you as an individual, and how celebrated you are. There are many decent men who aren't sexual predators - in fact, the majority of men aren't sexual predators. You don't deserve a medal for that.

But while most men aren't sexual predators, most sexual predators (the overwhelming majority) are men. And, understandably, sexual predators are highly likely to work in childcare as it gives them easy access to potential victims. As the facts show, paedophile rings online actively use the fact that men are more highly valued in childcare than women in recent years, and give each other advice on how to be hired and commit abuse without being discovered. Nurseries and childcare centres are being turned into hunting grounds.

One study showed that despite being 5% of the workforce, men committed 60% of the abuse in childcare.

While abuse and neglect by female nursery workers shows that safeguarding needs to be improved anyway, removing male nursery workers would immediately reduce the risk of abuse by a massive percentage.

Your argument that having only female nursery workers would create a false sense of security is specious - everyone is perfectly well aware that females can abuse, and in fact do abuse, so safeguarding needs to be improved and thoroughly enforced to reduce the number of abuse cases. But the percentage is magnitudes smaller with females, which means that children will be far, far safer with safeguarding+female workers as opposed to safeguarding+male and female workers.

The facts don't lie, and your feelings don't matter. Children's safety matters.

It absolutely will be exploited.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqjw2x10njeo.amp

This is from India and a maternity ward but it’s still relevant. This is CCTV that was set up to protect people but it’s backfired.

Also I’m not sure that they’re going to abuse someone anyway so might as well give them free rein in nurseries is the best argument. You cannot control every situation or remove risk entirely but when you can reduce it you should if it is practical to do so.

It’s like burglars. A really determined thief can still break in and smash in your door if they won’t but most want an easy target so the existence of particularly determined burglars/killers doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t lock your door. Yes they might move onto another house with less security but that is not your responsibility or fault and it doesn’t mean that you should forgo your security so that you get burgled instead.

I thought we were talking about harming children, not stealing CCTV.

If a child is never told that someone has circulated film of him having his nappy changed, he will never be harmed by it.

I don't consider the vanishingly rare and mostly preventable instances of CCTV footage being stolen as any reason to ban all men from early years work.

From the report you quote.

"Experts warn that while CCTV boosts security, poorly installed or managed systems can threaten privacy. In India, cameras are often handled by staff without cybersecurity training, and some domestically manufactured models are reportedly easily exploitable."

We’re talking about both. CCTV everywhere has been suggested as a solution and it may have its uses but it also brings its own problems and hacking is becoming increasingly common. It is not a highly unlikely risk. Besides there are also other ways for paedophiles to access it and children including actively conspiring to get jobs in nurseries and that is exactly what many are doing.

CCTV doesn't prevent abuse anyway, it produces evidence.

You are refusing to understand the point that it doesn't actually harm children to steal the footage and is absolutely no justification for banning good men from a profession where they are of value and which they love.

The continual feeding of these men’s lust and aberrations absolutely does harm children. Anything that continues to feed their desires does cause harm and results in more children being abused and how many parents would be blasé about images of their children having their nappy changed would be blase about a group of paedophiles having access to it? Not many I suspect.

You're a terrier, aren't you 😆? It does not harm any child at the nursery. Footage is available from a zillion other sources. The lack of any from males in nurseries will not make one jot of difference to that market, which can get it from anywhere in the world. It is not justification of any kind for banning good men from early years work.

I do. Think that they can all be hacked easily. Maybe some people know more about it than you.

You could say that if a child wants to abscond from a primary school or if someone wants to get in to a primary school they can but we still lock the doors.

"It is not justification of any kind for banning good men from early years work."

Perhaps not...but the fact that CCTV only catches crimes after they've been inflicted on victims, and that men are 5% of the workforce and yet commit 60% of the crimes, would both be excellent justifications for banning men from working in early years work.

I would argue for more safeguarding measures, and no men working in early childcare. Of course, that doesn't mean no male role models. At the kindergarten my children went to they had a grandfather who came in and did woodwork with the children once a fortnight - a large group outside, always with a female teacher there, and often a mother or two as well. It was very kind of him to donate his time and I know the children enjoyed it - and by the nature of his role, he never had an opportunity to be alone with any of them.

Protecting children from sexual abuse is misandry?

The point of the CCTV is that it acts as a deterrent to the crime being committed in the first place. It would be a deterrent to any paedophile accepting a job there.

You are correct about some people knowing more about CCTV than me, but frankly I doubt if that person is you.

And yet the fact that abuse in nurseries has been caught on CCTV, would indicate that it's not a very good deterrent, wouldn't it?

It may put off some predators but there are many who will risk it anyway. And if every second of footage isn't (re)viewed by a human daily, then it would be very easy for abuse to never be uncovered - sexual violation can take less than a minute to commit, after all.

Regardless, as men are clearly such a hugely, massively disproportionate risk factor, it only makes sense to remove them from the equation, in addition to having more thorough safeguarding in general.

My DH was a nursery worker when I first met him, and was an au pair before that. He then went on to get his early years teaching qualification. He's a social worker now, and is a natural with kids.

My DDs reception teacher was a man. SHE IDOLIZED HIM. His was the literal voice of god in our house for a solid year. Constant "Well, Mr X saaaays..."

I very recently met a young lad from the local college, doing a placement in school for his childcare course. He was absolutely wonderful with the children, and they adored him.

There are genuinely very, very few men in childcare settings, and not hugely more in the early years of school. They should be encouraged, not banned.

From a study, The Prevalence of Sexual Abuse by K-12 School Personnel in Canada, 1997–2017

"The study found 750 cases involving a minimum of 1,272 students and 714 offenders, 87% of which were male. Moreover, 86% of all offenders were certified teachers, and offenders employed grooming as the main tactic in 70% of the cases. Of the child/student victims, 75% were female, 55% were sexually abused on school property, and more than two-thirds of all victims were in high school at the time the offense was committed."

Admittedly, as it says, over two-thirds of the victims were in high school, not younger children, and it's difficult to argue that men shouldn't be allowed to teach high school subjects... Especially given that these cases, while committed by men 80% of the time, are still infrequent occurrences. And yet I wonder why we would encourage a demographic who are so much higher risk into a situation where children will suffer serious harm should the worst happen (as it inevitably does).

Sadly, it’s unlikely that men will be banned from working in nurseries, though as I’ve said I agree they should be. The way to go is to minimise the risk of abuse by proper safeguarding procedures. Particularly that no staff member should be alone with a baby/toddler in the toilets/changing areas. And reliable CCTV too.

It will mean that there will be parents who choose not to send their young DC to nurseries where there’s a male staff member. It’s our job to keep our DC safe and we have to make what we believe are the right decisions on that basis.

Even men we know well can turn out not to be who we think they are. My DM, a very sensible and intelligent woman normally, had no idea that my F was sexually abusing my DSis and me, she thought he was a wonderful father. I myself didn’t suspect a good friend’s husband of being an abuser (he sexually abused his SD) despite knowing both of them well.