Ban male nursery workers?

[BluntPlumHam]

I came across this article which has left me quite sick.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cze665j2y51o.amp

Said 18 year old was newly qualified nursery worker who’d SA’d and raped 3 year olds.

Nurseries are desperate for workers and I have noticed through friends and families that there is now an increasing number of men entering the profession.

Men traditionally haven’t performed this role and I often find it difficult to envisage what attracts a male to this profession to begin with when we have so many instances of men who run away from childcare responsibilities.

Although men entering the profession can be a positive outcome the other very concerning outcome and on the potential rise is this.

Sex offenders will target this profession no doubt as it gives them easy access to children.

men are significantly more likely than women to sexually assault children.
Official statistics consistently show that the vast majority of individuals convicted of, or reported for, child sexual abuse (CSA) are male. For example:

• In the year ending March 2019, the Crime Survey for England and Wales found that 92% of adults who reported experiencing CSA said the perpetrator was male only.
• In 2022/23, almost 99% of individuals convicted of child sexual abuse offences in the UK were men.
• Reports to the Australian Royal Commission by victims and survivors of institutional abuse revealed that 93.9% of the abuse was perpetrated by an adult man.

So just a blanket ban on them all together ?

It isn’t my personal opinion but I do think we ought to have measures in place to make nurseries more secure and safer. This thread is to invite discussion.

Also, kudos to those brave little 3 year olds who had the courage to tell their parents because they’ve saved a lot of potential victims in the future. My thoughts and wishes for a life time of healing for them and theirs.

So I’ve been doing a little armchair research as I am interested in what is the truth of this and @Bluecrystal2claims. I haven’t found clear data about Muslim men yet which I’d be interested to see. But this doc breaks down demographic data about sex offenders and victims in England in 2022. On page 38 theres a table detailing the ethnicity of sexual offenders.

88% are white, compared with 83% of the population being white.

7% Asian offenders - 9% Asian population.

3% Black offenders - 4% Black population.

The paper speculates the numbers being less than the population level in Black and Asian due to underreporting in these communities.

Anyway - also in this paper it confirms that 99% of sexual offenders are male. So it looks like this is indeed a male problem more than a race one, if the proportions are broadly relative to the proportions in society, potentially more a white male problem since the proportion is higher than the number of white men in the overall population.

https://www.csacentre.org.uk/app/uploads/2024/02/Trends-in-Offical-Data-2022-23-FINAL.pdf

Sorry for the derail op. But I actually thought that 99% of sexual offences being perpetrated by men was an exaggeration- very clear where the greatest risks lie in terms of women and astonishing that anyone can argue it is sexism to say so.

Surely people saying men shouldn’t be doing certain jobs or around children aren’t saying it because they think the poor man is emasculated by the role and should be out doing “manly” things like plumbing, armed forces or bricklaying! A woman saying she doesn’t want someone around her children is implying that that man is “unsafe” ie. a predator. The mothers who told me DH shouldn’t change our daughters nappy was implying he is a predator. The parent saying she didn’t want our male site manager around the children is implying he’s a predator.

We were offered nothing. We were offered no information by the police. The nursery also offered very little information but said they could not because that is what the police told them

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/childsexualabuseinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019

'Around 9 in 10 adults (92%) experienced sexual abuse committed by males only. A further 4% experienced sexual abuse committed by both males and females, and 4% experienced sexual abuse by females only'

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/abuseduringchildhood/findingsfromtheyearendingmarch2016crimesurveyforenglandandwales

Some data, plus a bit of commentary on collecting data/evidence on the second link.

Well I would rather not take the risk that my child may encounter the minority that are not decent. I’ll look after them myself until at least they are able to communicate clearly. Everyone should be doing the same.

'I actually thought that 99% of sexual offences being perpetrated by men was an exaggeration'

Yes, it sounds like it's made up, doesn't it?

It is accurate, across all the stats I've ever seen.

Abuse that includes other types of abuse - neglect, psychological and physical abuse - has different figures, although /I don't have time to dig them out right now.

Sexual abuse is almost exclusively a male perpetrated crime.

If the vast majority of men are so caring and decent then why the reluctance to let transwomen (basically biological men) share female spaces?

Yabu

I'm not sure, OP, about banning males from nurseries. There are good arguments for having male childcare staff, although it seems safeguarding needs to be much more robust across the board. A nursery setting should be relatively safe, given there are other staff around. I'd be enormously wary about, say, a male childminder.

Predators and abusers will always seek ways to access victims.

There’s a lot of extrapolation going on here. Of course I don’t agree with the examples you gave, but I think you know it’s complete exaggeration from you to suggest anyone is saying ‘all men are perverts’ as you claimed ‘so many’ do.

At worst some of the people you have come across are saying things like ‘a male janitor should be supervised around young children’ which is something that one could debate given the evidence that sexual offenders are overwhelmingly male. That’s not the same as their saying ‘all men are perverts’.

I always knew it was high but wouldn’t have been surprised if it was lower 90s. Even more depressing how many pps are here to argue it’s sexist man hate to raise this.

Not everyone has the option to do all childcare themselves. I was one of the lucky ones - my children never went to nursery, all their care until primary school was by me or DH (even bathing and nappy changes by their MALE father 😮). BUT if my children had gone to a nursery with (or without) male staff I would have checked their policies, their safeguarding procedures as any responsible parent would. I wouldn’t just decide that no male would ever be allowed near my children.

Honestly the rampant misandry on this thread. Thankfully the OP's suggestion is illegal in this country which looks like a very good thing judging by the prejudice on this thread.

It’s a complex topic. Here is one source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0190740914003946.

Honestly

I would prefer to leave my dd overnight at a single mums house who doesnt have a man there, than a home with a man

😬😬 so I do get your point

That said, women are also evil

Maybe there should be an age limit though, for working with kids?

Dunno - how horrific for those children and their families 🥺🥺

No, there should not be a blanket ban on men working with children. There should be robust safeguarding practices in place in all childcare facilities. This was a huge safeguarding failure and I hope the nursery in question has been shut down.

What about the ones saying any male expressing an interest in working with children should be closely monitored and not be allowed to be on his own with a child?

I would never leave my child alone with a male doctor though.

In the year ending March 2019, the Crime Survey for England and Wales found that 92% of adults who reported experiencing CSA said the perpetrator was male only
This stat seems particularly relevant as it is based on adult survivors reporting, rather than convictions.

This whole subject is very tricky. I don't think childcare should be seen as just women's work as it is bad for women.
But it is undoubtedly safer for children.
Maybe we need to make that compromise on child safety for women's rights though.

A useful statistic to know would be what percentage of female childcare workers abuse children, vs. what percentage of male workers do.

I do think poor behaviour from male nursery workers can be overlooked though as no one wants to be seen as sexist, and everyone seems to think male workers are better than female even when they are mediocre.

But WHY does the male site manager need to be supervised? If not because he’s male and possibly a predator then why? Not to mention who by and who’s going to pay for that supervisor….. WHY should a child’s father not change a nappy? If it’s not because he could be a predator then why was I told I shouldn’t allow it?

Also just on the point about workers never being alone with children - I've worked in several nurseries, and nursery & reception classes, and in every single one staff have been alone with children.
Especially in nurseries, there just is not the staff to have multiple staff taking kids to the toilet, changing nappies or putting them to sleep.

The solution's quite simple, those who would support a ban on males working in nurseries would be free to stay at home and look after their own children.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-30273548.amp

and you would leave your child alone eg if they needed an operation or were in for a prolonged period of time. As you cannot be there 24/7 and sometimes won’t be allowed to be there (eg in the theatre).

I definitely think that an all female staff nursery would get more custom. There must be an overpopulation of weirdos in the population of men who choose to spend their time changing small children's nappies.

Why isn’t it weird for a woman to want to change the nappies of children she’s not even related to?

I'd assume they aren't alone with a child in the theatre though?
But outside of that I would definitely attempt to have a family member with a child 24/7 for exactly that reason. Not just male doctors but there will be other men in hospitals and children are so vulnerable.
It isn't possible to ban men from everywhere.