Thread 19: To feel disappointed after reading this in The Observer about the author and her husband from The Salt Path book and film?

[DisappointedReader]

The Observer's original exposé: The real Salt Path: how a blockbuster book and film were ...

First thread: To feel disappointed after reading this in The Observer about the author and her husband from The Salt Path book and film? | Mumsnet

Links to threads 2-16, the other 20 Observer articles and videos to date, Raynor Winn/Sally Walker's statement, our timeline and sources can all be accessed in the OP and first few posts of Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5403285-thread-17-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5422393-thread-18-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

New posters joining us in the genuine spirit of our civil discourse are welcome. It would be helpful to get the background from at least some of the Observer exposé items before posting.
To all - Please be extremely cautious when it comes to naming or implicating people and addresses not in the public eye or with no direct connection to the story, and around the understandable health speculations, especially where details are unclear or still emerging. Remember, even Hollywood rabbits attract the odd flea. Please do not engage with drive-by scolders who seem to have their own agenda and seek to derail. Avoid @'ing and quoting them as - from experience - this will only encourage them back to the threads. Over four months we have done amazingly well together for 18 very interesting, very serious and very silly threads so far. I can't be here as much as I'd like so all help with keeping our discussion walking along in our usual reasonable and respectful fashion is very welcome.

Keep to the path. No saltiness. May the fudge and cider be with you.

"I'll fight anyone who says I'll make it to Christmas 2021!"

Another explanation for SW's strange comment about CBS/CBD in her rebuttal statement is that she knows precisely what the difference between the two is but assumes that the majority of her fans are either so unquestioning or feeble minded that they won't be able to understand the difference between the two terms. If so, that would suggest a breathtakingly disdainful attitude to those very same fans who have made her and Moth millionaires!

<crawls out from beneath a pile of fudge wrappers> I’ve had a lurgy and am just getting my brain back together.

Happy belated birthday @Vroomfondleswaistcoat ! 🎂

@NaughtyNoodler I agree. Her disdain for her readers (and anyone else for that matter) was apparent before July and is completely unmasked now. With hindsight and from picking things up - even from her own published writing - it’s all there. All her “fans” ever really wanted afterwards were some updates about Moth’s health and we’ve discussed recently how sparse that’s been except for her secondhand and probably fictional accounts. She has done a dreadful disservice to anybody who truly suffers and to the authors of other books which contain subject matter that she dabbles with in TSP and its sequels. The silence from her and from Penguin is maddening. Something should have changed by now. It’s been five months! Are Penguin really not going to change their advertising of these books? Future publications of these things ought to be stripped of reviews and the mentions of prizes and awards also. It must be sickening for the authors of those quotes placed on the back and inside the front covers, to know now that they were falsely ascribed. Surely they feel something for their apparent ongoing endorsement of Sally Walker?

Well done @HatStickBoots you have got your brain back with a turbo boost! Disdain. This encapsulates the whole spirit of TSP.

Disdain for so many types of people. Manufactured disdain - for the flooded village of Boscastle. Envious disdain - for Rowena Cade (as shared by @NaughtyNoodler).

@NaughtyNoodler I think I said somewhere on all this that I wondered why Tim hadn't been recalled for further assessment, as his case was so 'atypical'. Or even post 'walking recovery' - surely someone, somewhere must have thought "hang on, this can't be CBD/S, perhaps we ought to have another look at this man?" But this never seems to have happened, with everyone just telling him he's doing well for a man with CBD? Somehow I can't see this...

@BecalmedBrandy Publishers are about the money, always. Even my own publisher (who is generally great) hasn't raised a murmur about the 'scraping' of content to train AI. I understand that, in the US, authors have managed to get compensation for this, but in the UK there was a resounding silence. We all had every book scraped without consent and without recompense (all 28 of mine were used which means AI can copy my 'voice' if it wants to) and we were just told it was happening. No chance to opt out, no choice, no payment. And the publishers did nothing. So there's no much faith that they will take up arms against their own content, even if that content is proved false and harmful.

Glad you are getting sorted @Uricon2💐
Your point about false hope is so important to remember, Salray wrote that Moth was a beacon of hope in her rebuttal, I think since this rebuttal he is a beacon of hope for those hoping that their diagnosis is wrong. Tim's tentative diagnosis in 2015 as published, shows he had no diagnosis and certainly not a terminal one in 2013 as @NaughtyNoodler says why wasn't that diagnosis reviewed?

@Vroomfondleswaistcoat and @WellSurely have an understanding of how this kind of book sells and explored the piece by Polly Atkin that @SmallWoodlandCreature shared, very interesting points about the reading public and what they respond to, I read a piece the other day in which the writer said that PRH checked very little about any of their authors, I still wonder how responsible Jennifer Christie was in giving credibility to Salray? I have looked at the role of litary agent, it says that they check out the author, so they don't have problems further down the road with publishers.

Jennifer Christie is still advertising that she represented Raynor Winn, why isn't Jennifer Christie distancing herself? It's almost like saying, if you are a dodgy author with a book full of lies, I'm the litary agent for you. I respect what you are saying @WearyCat a very honest observation on the whole eco therapy, wellness business. @LetsBeSensible pointed out so well, how damaging the miss information perpetuated by Salray can be, causing distress to people suffering, who haven't read the books, but are subjected to the nonsense via others who have.

Glad you are feeling better @HatStickBoots and you too @BecalmedBrandy, Salray's disdain for her readers is horrible, so many readers cared what happened to Tim. I think @NaughtyNoodler that your piece also makes any argument that, as a side effect Salray has raised awareness of CBD/CBS and people have more understanding void, she is using these conditions, as you point out, Salray is still trying to manipulate the reader in her rebuttal.

I am excited for the documentary too @Uricon2 I've taken a subscription to Now, ready to watch and report. We will need buckets of fudge and gallons of cider @Peladon, I hope @SmallWoodlandCreature managed to scramble up the knotted sheets @WearyCat fashioned, we will need more tablet, gin, but definitely no more blackthorn for @AzureStaffyand I hope @ShrinkWrappedInSeattle will be joining us again after a good huff and puff :)

Fantastic post @Freshsocks ! Thank you for tying all the recent posts together and for taking out a subscription to Now.

@Vroomfondleswaistcoat
What you’ve described about your experiences as an author with your publisher and Ai in this country are sickening.
Regarding Tim, well, it was never really in their best interests to seek further explanations or diagnosis if they truly set out to scam everybody.

@Freshsocks Re Jennifer Christie - an agent works for the author, basically as an employee paid a percentage of royalties. As long as those royalties are coming in good and high, she will be taking the money and hanging in there. The responsibility for what is written always lies with the author, and while Christie might have asked a few questions about accuracy - there is absolutely nothing stopping Sal from brushing her off or outright lying. The publisher is the one who should have fact-checked and who should now stop touting the book as being 'true'.

And Christie will continue to mention Raynor Winn as a client because, for those in search of an agent, someone with the ability to get a book as dreadful as TSP in front of PRH and actually sell it to them... well, she's certainly someone that many people would love to sign with.

Exactly. Jennifer Christie works for SW (plus, obviously, for a lot of other authors) — her job is chiefly to find a publisher for SW’s books, and negotiate and manage contracts etc, and she takes her commission off SW’s earnings She’s presumably not ‘distancing herself’ from her because TSP was a big success for her as an agent, as @Vroomfondleswaistcoat says. She just sold the book. She wasn’t some kind of guarantor for it.

Thank you @HatStickBoots I will try to report back accurately. I agree with you about what has happened to @Vroomfondleswaistcoat and I'm sure you are right, it was never in Raymoth's interests to seek another diagnosis.

I do understand what you are saying @Vroomfondleswaistcoat about Jennifer Christie, when I searched for information on the role of a litary agent, not understanding this role. I searched variously, what is the role of a litary agent? they are described as a bridge between author and publisher and, what happens if an author lies to a litary agent? the advised course of action was for the agent to distance themselves from the author, inform the publisher and protect their reputation, that is not what Jennifer Christie is doing, so does she get off the hook? Has she made her reputation that of litary agent for the dishonest writer?

I'm not sure that the kind of lies referred to here would be relating to the content of a book though, more like your own past history of submission (were you rejected with extreme prejudice by a publisher whom your agent might subsequently approach?). I don't think my own agent has ever once asked me about the veracity or research for the contents of a book (although, again, I write fiction so it might be different).

An agent's job is to sell the book. It's the publisher who puts things like 'unflinchingly true' on the cover and pushes the whole 'true story' in the marketing and promo, when they could have kept quiet about that angle and none of this whole affair would be quite so dreadful if they'd blurred the lines between absolute truth and complete invention.

The Observer thought it important to contact them all following the discrepancy of dates:
Back in 2013, when Raynor Winn first learned that her husband, Moth, had a terminal neurological condition, she was reminded of her mother’s death.

Penguin declined to confirm whether this was the same manuscript that Winn presented it with. But it did say that the 2016 date on the back of The Wild Silence was a typographical error that will now be amended. The Observer received no response from Winn’s agent, Jennifer Christie of Graham Maw Christie Literary Agency, or from Raynor Winn herself.

All parties were fully aware of the fluid narrative of Sally Walker.

I think what it comes down to is - it made everyone money.

If Our Chloe hadn't written her article, everyone would, even now, still be huffing and puffing in private about parts that didn't ring true to them. Which parts those were would be dependent on whether you knew someone with CBD or had walked the coast path, or knew the legalities about house repossession or had known anything of the family prior to publication.

The expose joined a lot of dots, which called into question the WHOLE book. Most laymen could only call into question certain parts of it and I suspect that is what the publisher (and possibly agent) were relying on.

It must be difficult for those of you who are authors, when those of us who are not, ask questions about the world of publishing, I am now really outraged @Vroomfondleswaistcoat that you can have your creative content laundered by AI and potentially put out with no recognition of the original creator and your publisher isn't protecting you. Even if Jennifer Christie is employed by the author @WellSurely, don't they have to work with the publishers too, won't publishers look more closely in the future at authors she represents, I don't suppose this is such an issue with fiction writers @Vroomfondleswaistcoat and I get that the publisher should have carried out proper checks.

But Jennifer Christie worked with Salray, she represented and promoted TSP to the publisher, yet Jennifer makes no comment as @BecalmedBrandy says, it's just like it's business as usual for Jennifer Christie, and almost as if she has gained more kudos from her involvement in a book where the main features, health and homelessness were so easily checkable.

Yes, of course, money.

That is so true - about joining the dots. I picked up on the terminal illness, and know a lot about the SWCP, but clueless about the house/court.

Hopefully we are still adding pieces to form an even clearer picture.

It always seems to come down to money @BecalmedBrandy and as you and@Vroomfondleswaistcoat say, it has taken a collective effort to reveal all the inaccuracies that we know about. I'm going to have to join @ShrinkWrappedInSeattle for a huff and puff about the whole world of publishing, then I shall stuff myself with fudge and glug some cider :)

I am inclined to agree about Jennifer Christie’s lack of action here. I understand it’s the agent’s job to sell the book to the publisher and to form that bridge but I also would have thought that there would be integrity shown now. If it were me and I’d been hooked in by a client whose books (it turned out) were actually quite damaging with their preachy messages of hope that was all based on lies, I think I’d throw in the towel and cease to work with that author. Other authors could feel free to approach without the stigma of being represented by somebody who was still attached to a scammer. Can you imagine the literary world falling over themselves to read books by authors who come to be represented by the agent who sticks with Raynor Winn?

To be fair to Christie (here I go again with the Devil's Advocate...) she might still represent Raynor Winn - as Raynor Winn currently exists. So the books already out there she has done her job with, sold the publishing rights, sold the film rights. But she may well have sidled away from the whole controversy and just be sitting back and taking the percentages rather than actively trying to do anything further for and on behalf of Raynor Winn. She's certainly not standing up for her.

Pass the fudge, chaps.

TV listings

Her agency partner Jane Graham Maw has stood up for RW, however...at least in that she initially believed the nonsense rebuttal.

@SimoArmo This was directly after the rebuttal issuing, wasn't it? Has there been any sign of support for RW from the agency since? I mean, the rebuttal was so easily refuted (when everyone waded in with a proper analysis), I wouldn't expect much more to be said, but I would expect an agent to be putting forth subtle messages of support. I haven't even seen any quiet 'pro Raynor' posts from the agency since.

Thank you for sharing that. As Clover says:

what kind of person could stand to live with that level of untruth, while allowing herself to be hailed as some kind of folk legend.

I haven't seen it summed up like that and it is a very good question. One that only grows when we "think again" (Jane Graham Maw).

Yes, it’s hard to know.

And in fairness, I can’t think of too many literary agents getting involved in their client’s controversies. Peter Straus didn’t start publicly defending Anne Enright after public outrage after her (brilliant) LRB piece ‘Disliking the McCanns’ on prurient public responses, including her own, to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Though that wasn’t to do with her books, and was largely based on a tabloid misreading of the article, like Hilary Mantel’s ‘Royal Bodies’.

James Frey’s agent did drop him after A Million Little Pieces was revealed to be substantially fiction, but I think that was in part due to the high stakes involved, with Oprah Winfrey at first defending him and then going on the attack, and his publisher apologising etc. As in, I imagine she thought the potential reputational damage to her in the industry was greater than her income from representing him.

Glad you're getting over the lurgy @HatStickBoots and hoping your recovery continues apace @BecalmedBrandy . Thanks @SimoArmo for the docu listing.

I've got the sloe gin and fudge at the ready for it and @Freshsocks and anyone else who will be viewing pretty much straight away, I'm happy to share the load of precising as accurately as poss if anyone wants to do a small or smaller portion each. However it happens, we'll get it between us!

I know I'm behind with my Scam Path summaries but this is different I think we might need a new thread by then @DisappointedReader , hoping all well with you.

@Uricon2 I am still struggling with wearing a contraption to protect the pins in my hand. Thanks for your encouragement, despite your own concerns, what a different spirit to the disdain pointed out by @NaughtyNoodler and @HatStickBoots, this morning. This compelled me to look at TSP attitudes.

First, the bigotry towards older people. Let's go around the coast with SalRay:

past crowds of OAPs eating cream teas Minehead

Walking out of the genteel holiday spot, past the retired ladies’ tennis club Bude

We were packing the tent away when a group of old people in smart multi-pocketed shorts marched up to us.
‘Brace yourself; we’re going to get our first bollocking for camping where we shouldn’t.’ Moth put his best ‘granny’s favourite’ face on, while I tried to look away. approaching Port Isaac

A group of old ladies sat on the bench next to us, a full portion of fish and chips each. Mevagissey

We squeezed awkwardly through bus trips of old ladies Looe

Yes, well those are clearly the Wrong Types of Old People — greedy for cream teas and fish suppers, mindlessly bustling around tourist hotspots looking for Martin Clunes, probably wearing naff pastels. They have disposable income and know about poetry. They probably have conservatories and keep tissues up their lavender cardigan sleeves. SW depicts them as saying ‘Ooh’ and giggling a lot.

I think we’re supposed to grasp that the Walkers, who are continually being hailed in deeply unlikely ways as ‘old’, are (a) not old at all and (b) the Right Type of Old, grungy, tanned and tangy, wearing leggings and combats and rucksacks, carrying everything they own, living on the edge, free as birds, dealing with Deep Stuff, given to busking, hanging out with lifeguards who live in horseboxes, and getting massages from millionaires’ PAs.

The irony is that it’s almost certainly overwhelmingly the first group, the Uncool Old (particularly women) who made TSP such a big success. Older women are a huge chunk of the reading public, and tend to make up the single biggest group by far at author events and literary festivals outside of YA.