Feminism sold a lie - Women, today, are worse off than ever

[ConservativeC2]

Listening to the women I work with, it's been interesting to hear their views about feminism and they are not happy. We are all millennial age so not too young, not too old and I keep hearing that it's the millennial generation of women that have absolutely lost out the most.

I think feminism initially promoted some idea of independence, equality and choice. Phrases like 'men hold all the money and power' at the time were very emotive whilst not entirely true. The correct statement then (and still now) is some men hold all the money and power. Most men back in the 50s-70s worked very long hours and spent pretty much all their money on their family. It was hard for everyone, but I think women were more empowered then than now.

In contrast to today, most of the women my age have to work. Whilst feminism promotes choice, most of them do not actually have a choice today. Most men today do not earn enough to run a household which means most women have to work. The worst part is they still do a larger share of the domestic work and childcare. So I think women now have it worse than ever - it's not just me, my female colleagues feel the same way. They've come to point in life where they want to start a family but they know they will have to come back to work.

Now it's all to do with feminism. There are other factors which has driven up the cost of living (inflation, property prices, profit extraction from multinational corporates etc).

It's not my fault or feminism's fault that you've taken a position you can't defend.

@Suz145 - Inconsequential, but I remember a horrible sense of doom when 'Personnel' was renamed 'Human Resources'. It's so blatant! Personnel may already have been heading this way, but at least the name pointed towards the people staffing the business. Now we're a resource that happens to be human.

With thousands of jobs lost every month to robotics, the human 'resources' will soon be a sparse, annoying but necessary add-on to uncomplaining machinery. Probably too few to merit a department - they can outsource it to an algorithm named 'flesh units' or something 😕It must be Feminism's fault!

Although thinking about it - let the machines go their own way and have a human subculture independent of the money making machines

With respect, you sound like a total arse. I can’t be bothered to engage with you. Plenty of others on this thread have taken a similar position to me and yet you’re coming at me. I’m not starting an argument with a stranger on the internet. Cya

Well, that's a disappointment. You came into an argument with strangers on the internet. That's what this is. I'm not "coming at you" and I have responded to other posters on here as well as you. I've engaged with several things that you've said here on their merits, such as they are. I haven't been an arse to you - it's you who's cracked open the personal insults. I've just not let you off the intellectual hook that you've put yourself on. I've taken issue with what you've said because it's a serious thing for women to say that feminism is to blame for all their problems. You've not responded to any of my other comments, and your response to me saying I haven't understood what you've said on this thread is to imply that I must be thick and then to accuse me of being an arse to you. It's not that you don't want to engage, it's that over this thread it's become clear that your argument doesn't stand up and instead of just owning that you're calling me names. What a proud moment this must be for you.

Oh no!

If it weren’t for those pesky feminists I’d be Margo Ledbetter.

When considering the rises in house prices, a good deal of the problem is caused by 'investment' buying.

This wasn't a feature of home ownership so much in the 50s, 60s and 70s. If you were able to buy a home, you bought it to live in, not do up and sell on (unless you were a landlord).

'Carpet bagging' (buying houses to sell on) really came to the fore in the 80s, and massively manipulated the market.

It's a trend that never really left us, to the point of endless TV shows telling us how to make money out of doing up and selling on. Making houses into 'investment opportunities' as opposed to 'homes' artificially inflates the market today, just as it did in the 80s, but more sustained/long term so we aren't seeing the huge peaks and troughs, just a steady climb ever upwards.

Couple that with banks making it harder to get on the ladder, and you've got the current housing market. I'm not sure where in all that feminism sits.

That's so sad but I remember those times, I think people don't realise what life was like. The woman I knew who had 12 children in 12 years. Doctor repeatedly said she had to stop or she'd die. Eventually in an emergency they removed her womb. He left her, no infertile woman for him. She brought those kids up in a two bed house with the older kids sleeping in the loft, no I don't mean an attic a loft that they claimed a ladder to get into and shared beds some of them are retired now others still working. This isn't ancient history. I feel like crying and how we fought for equality and now told we harmed women. Makes me sick.

Well it's good to blame boomers because we fought for equality and it gives some the opportunity to sneer at other women. Nasty thread.

Yes agree - in life we have to play with the hand we’re dealt.

(some of) the boomers have been fortunate economically but they had parents who were traumatised by war. Or didn’t have a parent because they had died. Rationing in their youth and some grinding poverty. My mum as a child had to try and help her gran with her grandad who had turned to drink after being in the trenches in ww1.

you cant just cherry pick the good bits from the past and ignore the bad bits. Life has never been perfect

Yep it's disgusting, selfish and weirdly infantile. Basically women who wish they'd married richer men and this is somehow the fault of feminism. Ok.

And soon these women's stories will pass out of living memory and if women like the OP perpetuate their myths overwritten by a fantasy generation of cosseted wealthy 'boomers' who hogged all the resources and didn't know how good they had it.

I should also point out in my story about my great aunt, that her husband, my uncle Albert, was what would have been considered a 'good man'.
He had a responsible job at the pit. He tipped up his wages. He wasn't much of a drinker. He didn't chase women. His wife and children were well fed and clothed and their home was comfortable.
He just ran a 'tight ship'. Which basically meant his word was law to his children and his wife, and should they step out of line, he would punish them with his belt or his hands.
There may have been some soft disapproval of hitting my aunt, but as long as he didn't go 'too far' (kill or hospitalise her) that was generally considered between husband and wife, and a man's own business.
My point, the stories of abused women from that generation we know of are likely the tip of the iceberg. Within a context where a man's word was law and women had few rights of their own, and chastising your wife was part of keeping your house in order, the actual numbers of women living like my aunt in private can only be guessed at.

My grandfather was a lovely man. However, he also was severely disabled after the war (lost a leg, an arm and an eye) , so couldn’t work as a carpenter anymore. His wife had to support the family by herself, and being “only” a woman, got paid almost nothing. She hadn’t learnt a trade as she had expected to be a housewife.
My mother and my aunt were only able to finish school because my great aunt had bern wise enough to learn a trade (she was a seamstress specialising in delicate garments) and never marry.

You come across as very arrogant, and you have insulted me. Therefore I don’t wish to engage with you, and that’s perfectly okay. This is not the way to engage with a fellow human being, another woman at that. The irony when the topic is feminism. To put things straight as well, I never once said feminism is to blame for all of my/our problems. I think feminism has largely been a very, very positive movement. I do however believe things may have stalled in certain areas for us as women, for various reasons. I am entitled to my opinion and for voicing that without being attacked on here — I do feel you are attacking me. I engage with many others on Mumsnet, but you have been rude, and I’m tuning out now. Thank you!

That's a complete revision of the views you've expressed here, which others have taken issue with too in far more robust terms than me. The insults have only come from you.

@CarterBeatsTheDevil here you go, but again. That’s enough now. I don’t like this thread. So please don’t reply!

No. You don't get to claim that I have insulted you, which I really don't think I have, call me arrogant and tell me that I sound like a total arse, both of which are personal insults completely unrelated to the points that I have made about feminism, claim that you think feminism's great which represents a massive pivot away from your starting point, and then tell me not to reply to you. If you're stepping away from the thread, that's your decision. Go right ahead. I'm not forcing you to respond to me. But if you keep coming back and saying stuff that I disagree with, don't expect me not to point that out.

If there are kids under school age in the home or with additional needs the parent at home is also working and their work is allowing the other parent to work without worrying about sick kid days etc. I have worked 3 days weeks for ages and had the 2 days my husband is in the office 'off' but the reason we do that is that those days he just cannot have any flexibility which allows him flexibility the other 3 days when I work with a long commute. Those days I had 2 kids home all day, then 1 kid home and another to take to and from school and have from 3pm and that time is spent parenting, takibg them to classes, after school clubs etc. it means school holidays etc don't impact my husband's working days allowing him to progress at work through 'dedication'

Once youngest starts school I'll be doing self employed work (I work in a profession where I can locum) which again will be entirely flexible and those 2 days will be on me for sick days etc. we still share at home work 50/50 more or less, he does more cooking and kitchen sorting, I do more general tidying and proper cleaning, he never cleans the bathroom unless it's an actual emergency and I have a similar approach to ironing and the bins.

I think we agree. I am a SAHM, so understand entirely the flexibility you still provide to your DH/children on your days off paid work. My DH is in a job with zero flexibility, so could never do a school run/cover a sick day, etc. I am a huge advocate of the value of what parents at home provide.

My point was in relation to when a couple both work FT but one, usually mum, still does the lion’s share of the housework. If I were working FT like my DH then we would both do these things, as we did when we worked FT before children.

Old thread I know but I'm pretty sure several houses on my road have been carpet-bagged continuously for the last 20 years. No one has ever lived there properly- sad. Thetr should be restraints on this. Definitely not caused by feminism.

Women used to be treated like children.
Being a child comes with privileges and safety. It also comes with vulnerability, a lack of choice and open to abuse.

When women had to start ‘adulting’ there will always be winners and losers. It’s that simple really. Personally I’m glad I have the choice to live independently from a romantic or sexual relationship with a male if I so choose.

No. So many women were treated like servants by these husbands who of course thought they held all the power. I like to work. I have been in the position of SAHM with a high earning husband with a traditional labour split (me doing absolutely everything domestically, him working 8 hours a day) and it led to so much entitlement and disrespect from him. It ruined our marriage and made me into a wallflower that he did not respect and did not find attractive. Traditional roles benefit men and not women.

I was born in the late 70s, and my mum tells me that a woman in the bed opposite in the post natal ward was raped by her husband in the hospital bed a couple of hours after giving birth. Just pulled the curtain round the bed and forced her. Everyone could hear exactly what was happening, and that she was saying no.

The nurses did kick him out, and there was tutting from everyone that “he couldn’t even leave her alone for five minutes after having a baby”, but nothing more was done because it was perfectly legal to rape your wife, just seen as a bit grim.

DM remembers that woman over-egging her symptoms to stay in hospital a bit longer, and DM not blaming her given what she was married to.

At its most simple level feminism is the wholesale rejection of women as men's property. The examples given in the last couple of posts are exactly WHY we can never stop being feminists and should always remember the reasons why we needed it - and still do. We cannot be complacent, even here. I keep saying this but whilst I acknowledge we are a very different country from the US, the agenda regarding women's place in American society is pretty chilling. Read up on Project 2026. If implemented into policy, bodily autonomy and women's freedom to choose their own path would be hugely curtailed (much more than they already are through the reversal of Roe v Wade). Considering how much influence those guys have on the populist right (includes Reform of course) globally, this should give us all pause.