Don't have kids you can't afford!

[user793847984375948]

Hi all, this is meant to be an interesting discussion.

I keep seeing people say, “Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them.”

But in the UK, if someone works full-time on minimum wage, the state ends up paying thousands for childcare so that parent can work.
If that same parent stayed home, they would receive less support overall, yet they would be raising their own child hands-on. A single mum can work part-time and get rent and living costs for kids, around 500 a month in support if she works.

Nursery is about 1K a month usually. Then there's the wraparound care before and after school that could also be funded by UC.

So why is one scenario seen as responsible and the other as “sponging”?

Further, do people who say “don’t have kids you can’t afford” actually think only those earning £60k or more should have children, since that is roughly what it takes to cover childcare or a single income? That eradicates the above two scenarios and it's just those with independent wealth

If so, what would that mean for society long-term, both economically and socially? There would be fewer poor people over all and I think this would have an impact on our monetary system and menial jobs getting done.

And if you believe that only the wealthy should reproduce, you are effectively asking rich, white, powerful men to police women’s reproduction.
That is exactly what is happening in parts of America right now.

Genuinely curious how people justify this way of thinking.

If you can't pay proper wages etc then I would consider if your businesses are actually viable. I care less about this than the people who are struggling to pay bills and buy food.

People claiming benefits also work. 🫣

@NotEnoughKnittingTime So what do you think is a "proper wage" ?

The company I worked for was by no means a small business.
In marketing, people ARE the only asset, the firms don't have manufacturing facilities or real estate, they are essentially selling their employees' skills to their corporate customers, and they treat their employees like shit.

Whitewashing the corporate exploitation is frankly ludicrous, especially these days when even the school children are aware of platform slavery in gig economy.

I don't know but enough to not need UC. Teacher assistants, nurses for example should be paid enough to not need to claim UC.

@NotEnoughKnittingTime you've just named two low paid and socially valuable professions.

I pay my contractors their market rates. If I think their quotes are too high, I shop around but generally I tend to stick to reliable people, not the cheapest ones as unreliable workers can cost a business much more in lost profit than they could potentially save in upfront costs.

A tiny cafe around the corner has a sign on the door "we pay London living wage". Baristas have been working there for years so apparently tiny businesses can manage to pay decent money even in London if the owners are willing to 🤷‍♀️

Sure, so don't have sex (contraception has a low failure rate but a rate none the less) when the very obvious consequence (depending on where you are in your cycle) is pregnancy.

Just go totally celibate. There is no need to kill babies if you don't conceive in the first place.

They aren't babies. Potential to be one but they aren't babies.

I feel sorry for people who clearly don’t have an enjoyable sex life.

Sex isn’t just about procreation, you know. It’s about intimacy, connection and just plain fun - with the right person.

Abortion is healthcare, not murder.

(And I’ve never had an unplanned pregnancy nor an abortion myself)

People are paid based on what their labour is worth. Minimum wage prices low skilled people out of the workforce because their labour is not worth the minimum wage. So as the minimum wage increases, more low skilled workers are priced out of a job. The more the minimum wage increases, the more businesses either go under or automate, (think self-pay checkouts and the electronic order menus in McDonald's) and the more low skilled workers end up on the dole.

Most businesses are viable if they offer a product or service that people want or need at a competitive price. If an employee feels they're not getting paid what their labour is worth (underpaid, because let's face it, nobody has ever complained of being paid too much), they'll look for another job or even retrain in a different field if needed. Most of the time, cash flow issues causing financial strain is down to unnecessary expenditure and failing to live within one's means.

"Abortion is healthcare, not murder."

With respect, I'm going to agree to disagree. I don't want a fight.

Best wishes.

With respect, I agree to disagree. I don't want to fight with anyone.

Best wishes.

Not your body, none of your business.

I wonder where do you find the time to retrain if you're in full time employment and have a family 🙄

It's tough, but doable. Night classes exist and there are plenty of resources on the internet these days. If you want something badly enough, you'll find a way. Don't wait for the ship to come in and dock, get yourself to it and jump on it.

Add health issues, menopause into the mix too
It is very advantageous to get careers right the first time around

@Ubertomusic "Baristas have been working there for years so apparently tiny businesses can manage to pay decent money even in London if the owners are willing to "

And you came to that conclusion about all businesses from looking at one business ?

Hope all those who are planning to go into the wrong careers are taking careful note…

@NotEnoughKnittingTime "I don't know but enough to not need UC"

Basically the answer is "as long as a piece of string"

A "living wage" in the NE wouldn't even touch the sides in London/SE.

Due to the expense of living in London, NHS staff that live in central London are entitled to 20% uplift in pay. This is called NHS London Weighting.

Don't you see the point? It is a fact proven by everyday life that this is doable even in London if the owners are not greedy.

If your business is not viable, I'm sorry for you but that's economic and political reality we live in and business owners are risk takers by default.

Making your business "viable" by starving your employees and getting their wages topped up by the gov is not a working economic model - or at least it shouldn't be but of course it's been in place for ages and we are about to reap what we saw as there is no money left to prop up this zombie economy any longer.

The same way BTL market that's been propped up by housing benefit is crashing now at least in London, as the gov has decided it's time to take the plug out of this non-viable monster.

@Ubertomusic "Don't you see the point? It is a fact proven by everyday life that this is doable even in London if the owners are not greedy."

Not to me it isn't.

"A fact proven by everyday life"

Err no.
An assumption made by yourself. Maybe they have a "niche market", a USP that people value.
Have you ever been in this coffee shop BTW ?

When you know nothing about the business model of this coffee shop you mention, it's a bit of a reach to say that it works because "the owners aren't greedy" !

That's cheap! It's between £3,000 - £5,000 and that's up north! I'd hate to think what it would be down south!

This is what Reform and some other parties are saying to abolish the 2 child benefit limit (no I don’t support reform). Labour have not yet committed and Tories say the 2 child cap should stay. However on this Reform may have a point, we actually need to boost the birth rate as in the UK it is falling. We don’t have the work age population to support the retired population, this is a popular problem in developed countries, look at Japan. Apparently it is the single biggest threat to developed countries.

Some people believe and I do see it, that some feckless parents believe the state should pick up the tab, im not sure I think it’s ideal both parents work work full time for their kids to be in wrap around childcare either. Parents work non stop to just about afford to live. The minimum wage keeps going up and then so does everything else with a higher inflation it seems.

overall we need to support more children being born, but also encourage a healthy work amount too. Maybe if you decide to have more than 2 you need to be able to have some financial ability to support, even if it is for your own mental health and showing your children of how to aim to be. Life is getting more complicated and I feel for youngsters wanting to start out / have their stake in society / wanting to buy a home and start a family. It’s always been tough, but now it is harder.

I've been going there for six years, yes, and I know the owners too as they're local people.

Sorry I'm not interested in convincing you in anything. You asked a few questions, I volunteered quite a lot of info, got nothing in return but further pointless questions and void arguments, and I think that's enough for now.