Marriages don’t last anymore because..

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Had a debate with an colleague about why divorce seems so much more common now.

They said that in past generations, couples stayed together because they wanted to work through things and were more committed to making relationships last. I said I think it’s mainly because women have more freedom and independence now. Yes, most of the childcare still falls on women, but that was even more true in the past. Back then, loads of women didn’t have the opportunity to work full time and build careers like their husbands, so they relied on them for financial stability. Now that women can provide their own stability, they’re simply less likely to tolerate an unhappy marriage.

To me, that just seems like basic common sense but my colleague laughed and said I was completely wrong. According to them, people today just can’t be bothered to put in the effort and treat relationships as disposable. They also scoffed when I said women still don’t have the same opportunities as men.

It’s had me thinking, I honestly thought this was just obvious, but now I’m wondering what others think. AIBU, or is my colleague?

I’ve been with my husband for 36 years and married for 32. When people say that’s a long time, what’s the secret, I joke and say ‘low expectations’ but really what I mean is ‘realistic expectations’ The day I got married was exactly 7 years from the day we met and 4 years after we started living together. We both knew this was what we wanted to do and went into it eyes open.
i wasn’t expecting perfection, i knew my husband’s faults and he knew mine and we knew we accepted and could work with them.
ive never had a day where I’ve seriously considered leaving him, if he died I wouldn’t marry again as I would never find that depth of shared experience with anyone else, the jokes only we know and understand. The ability to have our own lives within our join life.
Today I feel everything is so disposable, and rushed. People believe in some fantasy idea of marriage and just throw it away when reality doesn’t match.
And before anyone, jumps on me, I do know that some people make bad marriages and anyone in such a marriage should just walk away if they can.
But marriage in a strange way, no longer really fits in today’s society, people don’t connect in the same way. I would rather pick up the phone and speak to someone, today that’s seem as an oddity and if you can’t speak to people but would rather use electronic communications to keep people at a distance, how can a marriage ever work.
I’ve seen post in MN where I just think why don’t you just speak to the person you are raging about, trying to discern their meaning from a written word.

Children are quite sweet though. They might drive a complete wrecking-ball through many women's careers and finances but, if you like them, they do make up for a lot.

I've often wondered what happens to all the sweet, mischievous little 8 year old boys, who are so helpful, independent, funny, such good company and who can do anything and have amazing "super-powers", between that age and adulthood, to result in so many unpleasant men who don't pull their weight or worse. Something clearly goes very wrong along the way in a lot of cases.

Not at all. As I said, I wasn't really bothered whether I had children or not. I wouldn't have stayed in the financial director position either way, in fact I give it up before having children. I'd not have gone back to it had we been unable to conceive nor do anything else different, other than probably grow the business more/quicker.

Men are selfish lazy and puerile and only care about sex.

So having children, did in fact impact your career and income.

If you had stayed child free you would have followed the same path but your business would have grown more quickly.

You spent your entire career planning for the inevitable financial impact of motherhood on your career.

The point is that men rarely have to make that choice. The only man I know who has ever had to make that choice is a widower whose wife died when their children were very young.

I wouldn't fancy a single one of my friends' husbands my age.

Did people put more effort into staying together, or was it more a case of one person (usually the woman) having to put up and shut up because of the fall out of leaving?

Oh god isn’t that the truth.

I’m always astonished by tales of men who ran off with their wife’s best friend.

I know it happens but… ick

You know perfectly well I’m not referring to situations such as yours. I was perfectly specific. Women who take no responsibility for their actions in choosing a series of unsuitable partners and having children with them should be held accountable for their lack of judgment and not enabled to continue making ‘mistakes’ which are anything but. It’s not misogynistic to expect something so basic from women. In fact, it’s misogynistic to constantly excuse and downplay their actions and the consequences of these low-value, transient relationships on the children that result.

You still have to acknowledge that it was harder back then, which feeds into why women were less likely to leave unhappy marriages - life was harder for them.

There’s a woman in my office, a former police officer, who told me that when she had her DC she had to leave the force because there was no option to work PT, and in the 80s, it was assumed that mothers would leave/reduce work to become the primary caregiver. The colleague in my OP seemed to think that having children had no negative impact on either parent and that it was purely a mother’s choice to step back from work. I’m honestly still reeling that he suggested leadership teams are full of men simply because they ‘hire the best person for the role.’

We are also living much longer AND ageing less.

Also to remember that that is the way it was designed to work, for women not to be able to live independently from men. Not because they aren't capable, but because the system made sure they practically couldn't. We still live in a society that has the hangover of that, and the risk to go back too. Anyone who says women have the same opportunities as men today is completely delusional and dismissive of hundreds of years of history.

op that’s very black and white thinking, the issue is nuanced so neither of you are being unreasonable

But what if there wasn't a welfare state? Effectively it is the kids getting punished for incompetent, lazy men or women. I don't agree with that. Shit does happen too, and it is not always down to being a shit partner. People die or just grow apart.

I think women just put up with more stuff in the 60/70/80s and some of the 90s, it was expected that you got married in your twenties and had kids, the man went out to work, the woman had a little job to fit around the kids and they stayed together.

Nowadays it’s realised that woman have more choices than ever before. They don’t have to have kids, they can have a career, they can go on holiday with their mates just like men can.

My parents marriage to me on the outset looks awful. They have traditional gender roles, my dad went to work and mum looked after my brother and I and did all the housework.

Dad was tight on the finances and my mum had an allowance and had to account every penny to him. No money went unaccounted for.
They insist they are very happy to this day but I do wonder if she stays with him out of fear as she doesn’t know how to exist without him.
No surprise why I thought ‘fuck that’ and have always worked even when it wasn’t easy when DD was a baby. I wanted independence and no way was I having some bloke ask me where £10 was.
I’m 40 and I’ve never been married.
I haven’t ruled it out, but I don’t really see what’s in it for a woman and it just gives more ‘control’ to the man. Obviously my own experience skews my opinion.
There is high expectations everywhere and standards are raised now and people don’t want to settle as we only get one life.
Whether this leads to long term happiness, or not, the jury is out.

Was there stupid stuff like shame attached to getting divorced and failure? In the days when people didn't live together as much before getting shackled.

Nothing or nobody could ever get me to marry.

And what happens when one person constantly prioritises the other, but finds that isn't reciprocated? Do they just carry on being a doormat? Thank God, more women do now have the financial independence that enables them to leave useless and selfish men who only really want an uncomplaining skivvy/sex doll!

I recall one of those human interest stories at the end of the local TV news. Nursing home hosted a morning tea for a couple living there - 60th wedding anniversary.
They sat side by side on the dais, not holding hands or looking at each other. The interviewer asked them separately what they attributed their long marriage to.
He said "I dunno, she just stayed with me I guess."
She said "Don't answer back and don't start any fights."

It was almost 30 years ago. I remember it because I was newly separated from my first husband and struggling with my emotions (devout Catholic etc.)

IMO there were two events that changed the relationship/marriage landscape for women,

!969 Divorce Reform Act (became law on 1st Jan 1971 created a surge in divorces. This legislation made getting a divorce much easier and took away the need to prove that someone was at fault. It also made it equally easy for a woman to obtain a divorce as a man.
Also women would fear divorce because of the financial risk of losing their husband. By the 70's women were much more likely to have independent finances and be able to manage on their own

!974 - "The Pill" was allowed to be prescribed to single women. This stopped "shotgun weddings" and pressure on people to get married "for the baby".

Interestingly, more women than men petition for divorce (heterosexual couples) and this has remained constant.
In 2021 63% were initiated by women and 37% were initiated by men.

My grandmother detested my grandfather. Had an affair for 40 years. They didn’t divorce because of stigma, plus she didn’t work after marriage, so had a cushy life.
My parents divorced …I was the only child in my year and one of only 2 in the school with divorced parents. You had to have grounds and evidence for a divorce back then. They had stayed together an extra 10 years because of the possible effect on my Dad’s career but eventually, that risk faded as divorce , especially for adultery, became more acceptable. My mother had been the one to cheat, but my Dad got a gf later, after he found out, and they used his adultery for the divorce to save her face.
When I met my husband, I moved in and ‘lived in sin’ . Frowned upon. We weren’t allowed to share a bed if visiting relatives, even when I was pregnant. We did get married because he needed a bank loan and wanted to look respectable. And divorced after 20 years. and for most of my life rates were climbing.
As women gained traction in the workplace. Less time for family life. More stress about income covering all the new inventions and costs…mobile phones, internet, holidays abroad becoming an expectation rather than a possible luxury, a car each instead of one family car, as well as the usual living costs. Everyone meeting a wider range of people and getting attracted to a new partner. I don’t know why the drop…maybe living together then splitting up not being recorded as a marriage would be.
Even now, rates are a lot lower than they used to be. ..Rising, maybe, but still nowhere near the peak . Interesting peak after the war. Absence clearly does not make the heart grow fonder.
I think people have higher expectations for themselves. They don’t tolerate because they don’t have to. I left my second mistake one year after we married. I started planning to leave 3 days after the wedding.

So true. It takes two to make a relationship work but only needs one to ruin it.

Unfortunately, there are still some women around who are happy to pander to these unevolved man-babies.

Some women really need to raise the bar !

I read an article that has noticed a jump in women divorcing once they reached menopause. I took away that they probably stayed and put up and shut up for the family unit and children’s sake. Once the children flew the nest /went to uni they realised they were unhappy and had no reason to stay.

And a lot of them are on MN. I could metaphorically shake them (and myself), but no longer. Once I saw the light I knew I’d never take shit from a man ever again, whether it was a tiny pellet or a mountain of the stuff. It was like an epiphany.

@BunnyLake "Once I saw the light I knew I’d never take shit from a man ever again, whether it was a tiny pellet or a mountain of the stuff. It was like an epiphany."

I agree.

This is why it took me 15 years to remarry after I divorced my first husband. The first sniff of disrespect or bad behaviour and I was gone.
People said I would never remarry because "I was too picky" WTAF !