Kids in care

[Marie299]

My daughter is 9 and does not want to see me I don’t know what reason is but I have been told that it’s due to different reasons. It’s been two years since I’ve proper seen her and she’s on a SGO with grand parents and theys a court order stating my contact with her should be every 6 weeks which has not been happening.

When I have been on the phone to her she’s been asking when she can see me and then a few weeks down the line she does not want to speak to me or see me. Just finding things very strange I have spoken to her grand parent about this and they not really saying much other then my daughter is doing therapy play but how can my bond with her even build when I am not invited to these things either.

I don’t know what to do I’m in the middle on going to court or just waiting it out but it’s been two years and worried that if I do nothing then my bond with her will never be fixed.

need advice

Why are you people, who know precisely nothing about the social care system and the discrimination care-experienced individuals face always the ones who are so loud and proud about their ignorance?

I have a bachelors degree in social sciences, and a masters in social research methods. But what makes me an expert is navigating first an abusive family situation, and later on the abusive care system.

Please believe me, you sound utterly uninformed and ridiculous when you comment on these posts where it’s immediately obvious you have absolutely no wisdom to convey, nor any practical knowledge of what you’re offering up an opinion on.

While there are various posters whose experience backs up the OP's claims, there are many others who also claim very valid experience suggesting the opposite. None of us here have any way of knowing which is true in @Marie299 's case. Maybe she is in complete denial about her own behaviour or maybe she was let down very badly by the system - and of course it's possible for two different things to be true at once.

Either way, a nine year old is too young to understand the complexities of any of this but she will certainly be confused and conflicted about the situation. @Marie299, whatever you feel or believe about how your daughter ended up in care, you would be wise not to place any of those feelings on her. If you were such a bad mother that SS feared for your child, she will of course hold that against you, particularly if she feels you aren't taking any responsibility for that now. If you believe you weren't that bad, just needed a bit of support and don't accept the SS view of the situation, she'll probably still believe you should have done more, been better, fought harder and that you are refusing to accept that. You're not going to look good in her eyes whatever the case, the truth doesn't really matter here. The only feelings about the situation you should express to her are extreme regret and sadness at the outcome and contrition for whatever your part in it was or wasn't. Focus on making sure she knows how different you are now and how hard you've worked to improve your life.

Apart from that, do exactly as others have suggested with gentle, regular, no-pressure contact focused on her and her life.

What sort of relationship do you have with her grandparents? Can and do you communicate well with them? If not, it would be a good idea to try, probably in the same way. Go in humble and be led by their response. They are probably your best way to get a foot in the door.

I’m not talking about what is true or not, because of course nobody here can verify that either way.

I am talking about the people who are offering very ignorant insights as to how the care system operates… Those people are instantly recognisable, but those comments are not nice for people in a difficult spot to read. They actually go some way in perpetuating a positive feedback cycle when people see their lived reality distorted by ignorant commenters. People need to think before they type but ofc they won’t, so I will be replying to those people strongly.

Well said. Readers should perhaps be reminded that the some of the victims of the child rapist gangs (often called 'grooming' gangs) had social workers trying to take their children into care. This was based on the repugnant attitude that the victims were 'those sort' of girls', chose to be with their rapists and even that some of them were madams, procuring girls for the offenders.

One girl known as Amber, a victim of the Rochdale gang, was forbidden by social workers from leaving hospital after giving birth. It was only the intervention of the wonderful Maggie Oliver who got Amber a good solicitor, that prevented the baby being removed. Oliver describes Amber as a 'great little mum's.

It almost makes me laugh when some people so wisely say stuff like: 'social workers can't do that' or 'there's got to be far more to this'.

You've nailed it.

Did both your children go into care because of your choice in partners and you not leaving them? I know a few women who were teen mums and they kept their children.

Yes - that situation is an excellent example of how stigma and discrimination plays out in real time. Being on the receiving end of it isn’t nice, but I have to be honest - I expect the people making these ignorant statements hold the same sort of views themselves; there certainly isn’t any critical thought going on.

As a sociologist and former care-leaver I’m horrified but not surprised by the attitudes expressed on this post.

My experience of 'the system' is as an adoptive parent of a child who bounced around the birth family (and random neighbours she was left with) and in and out of care from a few weeks after her birth until she was 5 years old. Her birth mother had chance after chance.

The impact on DD has been significant. She absolutely should have been removed earlier.

This in spades. Your daughter will have experienced trauma when she was taken from you even as this poster said it was for the right reasons at the time. Do you see your son at your daughter’s grandparents home? If you do then continue that. Make sure you are always on time to see your son and hopefully your daughter will slowly see your not going anywhere and will always be there when you say. Your daughter trusted that mummy would always be there but suddenly mummy wasn’t. Why isn’t mummy there is it because she doesn’t want me? We know it is far more complicated and nothing could be further from the truth but that doesn’t stop that little girl feeling lost and alone. Baby steps OP to rebuild your daughters trust.

As someone else suggested maybe ask nearer Christmas ask if they want to go for a pizza to celebrate it and of course grandparents can come too as them being there will help reassure your children that they are safe.

And my son is living with my daughter at her grand parents house

But your son isn't related to your daughters grandparents?

Is he under SGO? How has he come to be living with non related people?

And yet on the other side of that coin I grew up next to a family where the children were routinely beaten by their Mother and Grandmother (no father present) we could hear it through the paper thin walls. The children were stick thin and smelled disgusting. My parents called the police and social services countless times but was anything ever done - no they just needed ‘support’ apparently. So I really don’t believe stories of one single little incident and social services all over reacted and the parents didn’t see their child for years, it’s sensationalist nonsense.

There's something of a lack of respect for people's lived experience. It may be explained by people who eulogise social workers (and NHS staff) who don't want that belief shaken. I do have sympathy to a degree with this - I was shocked to my core with the unjust way social workers treated me and what I saw happening to others. The subsequent cover-up was almost as bad as the events themselves.

There are lots of different experiences of social services. Social workers, and NHS staff, didn't believe my account of sexual abuse , violence and mental cruelty by my family and aggressively took their side against me. They were especially sympathetic to my mother, the main abuser. My father had a good job and they were all well-spoken so the kind of people who rarely get children removed no matter what they blatantly do. When I found out what happens to children in care, I was grateful, and still am, that me and my siblings were not removed.

There were a couple of threads on here in response to a dreadful Guardian article about a man convicted of downloading the worst level child pornography. His wife who worked in safeguarding took him back - they had a young child. One poster made an excellent post about how social workers behave differently with middle class offenders and rarely remove their children.

@Marie299

I would suggest you get clarity on what the present legal situation is and what your options are.

You could consider getting yourself an advocate who will be there for you and who you can take to meetings. It is very difficult, and not advisable, to attend any meetings re children alone. I was an advocate and had a client who was a parent of children on the at risk register, one previously in care. Failing that, get a friend who can support you.

Well, what’s the point in you providing an anecdote yet dismissing another poster’s?

I can emphatically say I have seen both sides of this. Social work teams attempting to remove children without any reason, even after a judge has declared it is ludicrous and refused to grant the order. Thankfuly, judges usually intervene and prevent this but it only takes the wrong judge to make the wrong choice to remove a child.

I have also seen, and made reports myself, where parents were left with children who were actively being harmed even with infallible evidence (videos, photos). This is because social workers simply could not be bothered, or they want a family placement at any cost.

Both are shocking and both happen day in day out. I would agree that the latter is more common but it’s completely ignorant to deny other people’s lived and professional experiences.

Also, the quality of some social workers and even independent reports is bloody shocking and even scandalous (again in both directions). Honestly, why I don’t know why people comment on these sorts of threads without having a clue.

And you think that this is the case every single time?

There's a vast range in responses as to how a child or parent in need is handled, and 'I knew this situation so it's always like this' is simplistic and just perpetrates the lack of clear thinking and sometimes very profound injustices.

It helps neither the children who are in genuine need nor the parents who are victimized by the prejudice within the system.

This. I’ve got no input into OP, but from years of working in a child protection department, my experience is that removal of children is a last resort (previous care children or not.)

Preparing a case is time and labour intensive, because only a judge can decide on child custody, getting it to a court is very expensive, and placing a child elsewhere from a parent is even more cost excessive.

But, regardless the daughter here seems to be struggling with what has happened. 🤷‍♀️

OP, I wish you well, there is some good and compassionately offered advice on here that I hope helps you, as you come across as being invested in your children, and trying hard to rebuild things moving forward. I sincerely hope that can happen.

In the wider context of the discussion that this thread has generated, I wish people would remember that each "case" is individual and specific, from the circumstances that brings contact with SS, to every aspect of the proceedings, which includes not just legalities, but personalities of all involved, alongside ideologies and the results of research that sweep people into big boxes whether they truly belong in them or not.

When the legalities aren't followed, it is often swept under the carpet, and complaints procedures are long and often circular, as no LA wants scandals all over the front page. Problematic cases are passed like hot potatoes from agency to agency, and complainers often are subtly punished for doing so.

Most people who have been involved with SS, whether having had a positive or negative experience see that child protection is necessary and vital, however, their faith in the current system to achieve that truly "in the best interests of the child" will naturally be coloured by their experience. It's good to see professionals on here agreeing it's a very mixed bag and some of the so easily dismissed "anecdotes" tally with their experiences.

The other thing that really grinds my gears is the superiority and sanctimony that oozes from some posters. The underlying attitude that if you are having difficulties with SS then it's a suitable punishment for being involved with them in the first place, yet the full circumstances of that involvement are very rarely as simple as "bad Mum", and the level of bureaucracy, scrutiny and interference in every aspect of a families life is hugely stressful and can actually help compound delicate situations in terrible ways.

In terms of the different treatment experienced by various demographics such as care leavers, those struggling with mental health issues, those in the lower socio-economic strata, there is judgement and discrimination.

Can you imagine if the McCanns had been the Bloggs, down at the local taverna knocking out karaoke classics, knocking back prosecco and "checking" on their kids, as opposed to middle class professionals enjoying tapas and a nice rioja?

If you've never been involved with SS, and certainly never had a bad experience with them, then count yourselves lucky, and stop and think before you pour scorn and judgement on those navigating it who are trying their hardest, but it is never deemed good enough for whatever reason, and believe me, often getting any sort of straight answer out of a SW is like pulling teeth when all you want to know is how best to work with them.

I went through it 30 years ago, and I've seen a few friends go through it, and nothing much has changed or improved in any direction apparently, and all the circumstances though complex were different, yet sledge hammer and nut springs to mind.

I was going to mention the McCanns in my post earlier but thought I’d be banned or blocked. It is a perfect example though, well done for pointing it out

I think her dd gp are doing it on purpose withholding contact. A little girl wants to see her mother and has to get permission from her GP. Something's not right but yet SS allows op to have contact with her son every 2 weeks. The little girl is powerless and all she can do is wait until she is old enough. She'll probably stick two fingers up at her GP none of it will be appreciated. She will probably need years of therapy herself because of the emotional neglect and parental alienation because of the GP.

The op was in care herself when she had children. She was a child herself that's probably why they removed them she had no stability or support.

oh well another child failed by the system.

Total rubbish. There is a contact order in place and the girl doesn’t want to see her mum. This isn’t parental alienation and the GM is raising the OP’s children and she’s bloody lucky they aren’t with total strangers in foster care. It’s not an ideal situation by far but it pisses me off when people automatically think the birth parents are angels and slag off those picking up the very difficult mess the birth parents have left behind.

Believe me, I have plenty of 'lived experience'

I beg your pardon! You know absolutely nothing about my experiences or knowledge so how very dare you!

Have you had legal advice about going to court? What would you go to court for, to try and get her back into your care, or to enforce contact?

Play therapy is for the child only and you wouldn't be invited to that. I think write as many letters as you are allowed, telling her you love her and miss her and are working hard to try and make improvements so that at least in the future she knows that. Hopefully her grandparents are providing a stable and positive home life for her, at least she is with people who love her.

The GP brought up a feckless son who can't look after his daughter let's not forget that. What great role models. SS see that more contact is beneficial for her son but not the GP. No wonder the child is confused but what can SS do as long as they are fed and looked after. They advised the op that it could hurt their feelings if she goes to court for more access. It's up to the grandparents to allow access. That's why the solicitor has advised to go to court.

I agree the GP is the best place for the children rather than care homes. My partner worked in one and it's challenging place to work in and live for children.