Friend and Continued Work Absence

[GentleWord]

I have a friend who has some mental and physical health diagnoses. She qualified as a teacher more than ten years ago. She has worked in different settings - state schools, private schools, and preschools.

Since then, she has had a few jobs as a teacher, but on average, she has up to half the time she is employed off sick. This does become an issue, and mostly she has to move on.

Never quietly. It usually goes through legal channels and I know the company have settled at least twice.

Before, I didn't think much about this, but now I have reason to think about schooling, I don't think it is fair that she keeps taking jobs that she cannot do. I'm actually unsure how she manages to get a new job with her history but apparently schools have only very recently been demanding of the last reference and now you can give "bad" references.

I don't think it is fair on the children to have a teacher who is so unreliable. I don't think it is fair on the staff. I think after a decade, it should be clear to her and her family that she cannot be a teacher. However, I think they cling to her profession as a status thing.

The same pattern is occurring again where shw is started to have repeated and medium term absences from a job she started last year. I think this time I should be a bit more honest with her about her career and the other people affected by how she engages with her job.

Unreasonable - dont say anything and just support her

Reasonable - find the words to say that teaching isn't an appropriate career choice.

You can say that they are discriminating against a protected characteristic apparently.

Surely OP can look at her friend's behaviour and think it may be unethical to pursue job after job knowing how limited her ability to fulfil the terms of her employment is, without it meaning she's wishing bad things upon her, or have that mean she is a bad friend?

Your use of the word 'unethical' is interesting. I don't think it's any more unethical than when women deliberately start a new job knowing they're several months pregnant then immediately go off on maternity soon after starting, or take their full maternity leave entitlement knowing they have no intention of going back to work afterwards. That I think is avoidable because it's a certainty that it's going to happen, where as becoming ill, or becoming ill again, is not.

Sick and disabled people have employment rights too, and it's not unethical for them to do something as normal as get a job.

awaits chorus of THIS POSTER MUST BE A MAN!!!"* For the avoidance of doubt: not.

Yes and she has all her mental health therapy privately as her parents pay for it. How much of what goes on actually makes it to her general GP records, I am unsure. She's been in a very high profile private mental hospital a few times, not always voluntary either.

This isn't someone who is totally reliant on the NHS by any means.

Pregnancy usually means a fixed period off of work. It doesn't mean several stints of weeks off interspersed with odd days.

You still haven't said how you support your friend.
The now I read the more obvious it is that this is a colleague you're pissed off with

She didnt have to take a job in teaching. She just wants to be a teacher.

I work in music media and marketing. We have very different jobs. Ive said how I support her over the years. From being in a+e in the middle ofnthe night with her in a mental health crisis, to making sure my wedding plans didnt leave her feeling rejected or isolated. To changing plans numerous times to be with her instead of my family, friends or partner. Starting.hobbies. cutting off friends. Not moving on one occasion.

I really think I do my bit. The two therapists I've had also agree that I do way more than enough for her. Having a close friend with EUPD isn't easy by any means. Have you ever been someone's "favourite person"?

It absolutely can and does if you have multiple children in close succession, as many people do. Plenty of women get jobs, get pregnant, take their full maternity allowance, go back to work, get pregnant again within months, take another full maternity allowance... and so on and so forth.

If that isn't unethical, then neither is working with ill health.

Who says that specific behaviour is ethical? I don't know anyone who has done that, myself. Most people have 2 or 3 kids over about 8 or 10 years.

You hadn't mentioned any of that
Still not convinced

Why would I need to mention how I support my friend? This is about her not going to work and the kids not having a consistent teacher. Lots of people support her - financially, emotionally, physically even.

I don't particularly think it is because it's deliberate and planned, as opposed to ill health which isn't. Ill health can't be helped. Pregnancy can. But it is legal, so by that token your friend isn't doing anything wrong. Plenty of people here will hold the view that repeated maternity is perfectly ethical, so I wonder what their opinion is on this, and whether, and how, it differs.

Most people have 2 or 3 kids over about 8 or 10 years.

Actually, not so much these days. With the cost of living as it is, many people are having their kids very close together so they can get the high nursery fees out of the way as quickly as possible. That absolutely leads to repeated maternity leaves with very little time in between them; meanwhile the employer is stuck paying their maternity package (if they have one) and for repeated maternity cover staff.

And then you have those who take their full entitlement knowing full well they're not going back to work afterwards but don't tell their employer until the last minute, so that they don't lose maternity pay.

I don't see that as any different, aside from the fact that it's deliberate and planned for, whereas ill health is not.

Actually, we absolutely can have it both ways! Adjustments have to be 'reasonable'. There are certain jobs that certain people can't do. You wouldn't have to adjust a roofer's role for someone with multiple amputations or a proofreader role for someone with dyslexia. We have to be practical. There are many many types of jobs - she can work without claiming disability benefits, it may just not be teaching.

Hats off to someone with mental health problems and still trying to work. Doesn't matter what work she is trained in teacher,cleaner etc at least she isn't sitting on her butt when she is well. Sorry but if I was her friend she would be getting praised for trying the rest is none of my business. I'm pretty sure anybody with mental health problems that never know when the next bad flare up will be and keeps trying needs support not a critical friend. She must actually be a very good teacher when well for her to actually be able to get the jobs

Ah yes, but how many of them would be acceptable to her family, who insist she must have a "professional" job?

Why do you have sneer quotes around the words immunocompromised and severe IBS? and why do you say she 'feels' she has these things?

EDITED for typo

Because it's a forum and some people like me were questioning whether she is actually your friend. Because you don't sound very much like her friend.

Surely if you take a maternity package without going back to work afterwards you have to pay it back? I'm pretty sure anyone I know who was lucky enough to have something like this also had a minimum amount of time they had to return to work for after the maternity leave. A workplace can plan for maternity leave(s) cover as it's usually a fixed time and they aren't having to pay high cover rates on a daily/ weekly basis. I'm not saying disabled or (sometimes) unwell people shouldn't work, but surely one should also consider the type of work you are doing or are able to do, and the knock on effects of being unable to perform in that role. A large team of admin workers can absorb an absent colleague's workload in a way that a missing teacher can't be well replaced with multiple covers. When those most affected by your absence are really reliant on the job being done well and consistently, surely it is the better choice to allow them that and to look for a job that is easier for you to both earn a living with and not let down not necessarily your employers, but the people who have no choice but to rely on your presence in the workplace.

Personally I couldn't be friends with someone who was so manipulative and deceitful. Education in this country is up against the wall financially we don't need people like her taking the piss. Literally taking money away from children what an awful awful woman.

That depends on so many things, doesn’t it.
Is this person well enough to retrain in another career path?
Is she young enough? The OP hasn’t said how old she is despite being asked.
Are there any other jobs she’s able to do, or qualified for?
She also has the family pressure of the expectation that she will be in a professional job to deal with.
Tutoring, maybe, but it takes time to build up enough students to make it worthwhile and then she’s not earning while she’s doing that.
It’s not as black and white as people make out.

Absolutely, I agree, it's not black and white, but when this has happened repeatedly, it surely must be time to reassess. Agency work as a teacher when she's well enough is still teaching and a profession, and not leaving a class to potentially fall behind without their permanent teacher. Lots of people carry family expectations of achievement, and some of those children who are losing out on a decent quality education could well be among them. Should young children be having to catch up in their spare time so that they are meeting the high expectations of their parents? Tutoring would also leave students without their regular tutor during the times when she isn't well enough to work, so probably wouldn't be a good alternative. I fully sympathise with anyone struggling with their job and I hope OP's friend can find an alternative solution to their presumably quite unhappy situation.

Of course, I see the point about the kids’ education. But if children are losing out on education because she’s off sick, that’s not her fault, and they shouldn’t be. If they are, that’s entirely down to the school, for not hiring a suitable replacement or cover teacher.

But school budgets are so squeezed already that they can't automatically allow for a teacher's salary plus expensive cover on a regular and long term basis. What if there were five teachers like this on the staff? How could the school afford to do this long term? And a cover teacher needs to be found quickly, the school can't take weeks/ months appointing the very best fit for the class - she could be back at work before this happened (or not, and off another few months). If the teacher's sickness is regular and it seems, inevitable, it is unfair to just say that this is her right to earn a salary regardless of the consequences for anyone else.

But you were just suggesting she works as an agency teacher. Where is she meant to find work, if schools are too squeezed to hire any to cover absences?