To think this is a poor excuse for men not wanting to enter these jobs?

[PrincessSophieFrederike]

I came across this interesting Substack post the other day from a US feminist. She was talking about the lack of men entering professions like veterinary medicine, teaching, library science, etc which are now female-dominated, despite the fact that these were all originally male-only professions. She argues that men are put off female dominated jobs for fear of being seen as less masculine. She had a similar argument for why men are enrolling less in college there.

I also think a factor is that female-dominated workplaces may have on average communication styles which rely more on indirect messaging & ways of expressing conflict, whereas male-dominated workplaces tend to resolve conflict & compete more overtly. Ofc this is a stereotype & not true for many people, but I has some accuracy.

Overall, I do find it a bit of a frustrating excuse. I can understand men who prefer stereotypical male communication styles feeling less comfortable in a female-dominated workplace. Another factor is that women are more likely to promote woke stuff like TRA stuff which many, maybe most, men dislike. (Obvs many women do too, but unluckily women also promote it more). I can also understand concerns about making friends in a female-dominated workplace. (Ofc men & women can be friends, but they might understandably want more men around. Plus a lot of women might be suspicious of a man's female friends- sometimes with good reason.)

I have a lot of sympathy for things like the decline of traditional manual labour & spaces to meet & , the resultant rise in poor male mental health & suicide. But on this issue I'm more sceptical.

Women had to enter plenty of workplaces where until recently they had been legally banned. Sexual harassment is still a big problem in quite a few jobs. Generally women were told to toughen up, for a long time.
Whereas looking up other articles, we're told how men are 'intimidated' by going into a 60% female veterinary class. As I said above, I sympathise with some concerns they might have, but 'intimidated' seems a bit much. Ofc women can be bullies, but I doubt men who enter such jobs will be sexually harassed or seen as less competent due to their sex. Anecdotally, my gran always told me that the few male teachers at the school she taught at were very popular with the female staff. Surely it's similar for other jobs sometimes?

TLDR : AIBU to think it's a bit much for articles to talk about men being intimidated by female-dominated colleges & workplaces, whereas until recently (and some still say this) women were told to toughen up & adapt to male-dominated (and often sexist) ones?

Here's the blog post :
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=celestemdavis.substack.com/p/why-boys-dont-go-to-college&ved=2ahUKEwjO2YC83JCQAxUUUkEAHYAfDEYQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1zEufcGV0QFy2UlnORBIlb

Unluckily a lot of the comments provide an sample of US manosphere attitudes. In a sense it's good for those kind of views to be brought into the light, though.

And this is the article talking about men being intimidated by the number of female vet students.

https://www.avma.org/javma-news/2010-12-15/study-seeks-explain-feminization-veterinary-profession

In the US possibly. Outside the US I am very doubtful.

I can believe men say they'd be intimidated. I work in a male dominated field. I was talking to a colleague who was complaining about things organised for (by) the women's network. I pointed out that men were also free to join. "But I'd be the only man in the room!" he said - without the slightest hint of recognition that I am very frequently literally the only woman in the room.

There's evidence that as a field becomes more female dominated, average salaries,go down. This has happened in dentistry as an example. And then men are even less likely to choose it.

But my instant reaction is, "stop being pathetic and get over yourselves."

Not sure...but I agree the US is more sexist.

I do think the article generalised about various professions having 'male flight' when each have discrete reasons for being female-dominated.
Gymnastics, for instance: arguably the rise of great female gymnasts like Comaneci & Korbut helped make the face of the sport more female. Simone Biles is a more recent example ofc. I do think that this is a bit of a US-centric example : US standards for men needing to be tall & muscular seem to have got stricter if anything. And with that, male gymnasts are seen as a less masculine. We see that in countries like Russia & China, with different standards, male gymnasts are still admired.

Interior design: yes, the profession has more women overall, but men still hold most of the top positions. So is it really an example of 'male flight'?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=riluxa.com/blog/design-trends-3/69-of-interior-designers-are-women-so-why-do-men-still-take-so-much-of-the-credit-427%3Fsrsltid%3DAfmBOooEYtAtS3oFZDKRbCPKDkRrCF8xsLbAc7lAItMbE6qwcuGmM2h&ved=2ahUKEwj58Yro6JCQAxWcUUEAHfdBFCgQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2OLhj2Gsn1RMRQmZmj-6C5

Architecture- numbers are more equal at university, but the profession is still male-dominated in both UK & US. So not a good example of 'male flight.'

https://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/knowledge-landing-page/barriers-for-women-in-architecture#:~:text=In%20the%20UK%2C%20there%20have,Photo:%20Sumita%20Singha%2C%20author)

Sorry, the interior design link was faulty:

https://riluxa.com/blog/design-trends-3/69-of-interior-designers-are-women-so-why-do-men-still-take-so-much-of-the-credit-427?srsltid=AfmBOoqPOio9qxV9_XUcboFNDrpqNuGPrNiQcMAzwJVAC3japeiw3YG3

That's ironic : I do think some of it is definitely men perhaps not liking not being in the majority (the same types commenting on the article to say 'women have driven men out' are often the ones who tell women to join trades if they want higher pay, ignoring the misogynistic culture some have that often puts women off)

Agree re the pay. I read another interesting article on that recently- also US but applies here too probably:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html#commentsContainer

IMHO, once a profession is seen as being dominated by women, there is a significant drop in salaries.

I think that's a kinder explanation than what I suspect is often the reality. I think once a job or profession becomes female-dominated, men value it less and see it as having lost status.

In academia, subject areas which have attracted lots of women have lost men. Men have been clustering into the 'harder' (as opposed to 'softer' i.e. more social, people-based) versions of their subjects.

Professions like teaching and some areas of medicine are less attractive to men because they take them less seriously, and the pay has levelled off - men are still attracted to the more senior posts, though.

Trades that are still very male-dominated discourage girls and women because the men like it that way - they like the blokey atmosphere and tend to thnk women just aren't as useful in physical or technical roles.

So jobs attract more women than men. Pay drops as a result, then less men apply. Really, are you surprised?

Dentistry (currently female dominated) pays far better now than it did 30 years ago when it was male-dominated due to the effective privatisation of dentistry. Likewise some of the medical specialisms that pay the highest (dermatology, aesthetic medicine) are also female dominated. And if you look at the rise and rise of equity partner pay in large law firms, this has coincided with a huge increase in female representation among equity partners (close to 50% at some firms). The same pattern can be seen in Big4/consulting partnerships. So it’s not correct to say that more women in a profession results in lower pay. Quite the opposite, it would appear.

To take one of your examples, OP, architecture pays far less than medicine & dentistry on average, yet it’s the latter that’s female dominated.

I think this is just another example of victim feminism downplaying women’s achievements and successes in certain fields to peddle the ‘women are so hard done by’ narrative.

I work in a women dominated sector. I've worked with some excellent male colleagues. However, I've noticed some patterns in behaviour amongst others.
The expectation of a quick rise through the ranks and very high dissatisfaction if lose a promotion/opportunity to a woman. Reluctance to accept any criticism or their ideas not being taken forward. Need for high levels of praise from women managers. General attitude of being too good for the job, but doing it because it's a good thing to do, so you're lucky to have them. Regular requests for pay increases despite earnings on par with role and sector. Setting themselves apart from women, expecting special treatment, being 'looked after', performative incompetence of lower level tasks so women 'help'.
So my conclusion is that there is a pattern where men have a different outlook towards 'female' jobs. Summed up be thinking they are too good for them really so should be seen as a special prize and afforded special treatment.

As women, we would all have a very different attitude if we were brought up to think we were better than men. It's just sexism.

The funny thing is we were not empowered and it's made some women push. Men were brought up to feel entitled, being with women suggests to them they are less than they should be, that makes some of them feel sad and fragile.

Being brought up as a gender where you believe you rank more highly doesn't always work out best

When I read your OP this was the first thing that sprang to my mind.

"The pay plummets in professions once women enter."

Tbh I find it a difficult topic because on one hand....
I am totally fucking over men and their general societal ineptitudes (just BE better, get with the program, make some kind of effort maybe?)

On the other hand when you stop the conversation / stop trying it just becomes another point of division in society...and there are too many already.

I also agree with this
Summed up be thinking they are too good for them really so should be seen as a special prize and afforded special treatment.

Particularly in relation to parenting and domestic chosres.... many many men i know are like this to a greater degree... if they arent given high praise and told how bloody marvellous they are for putting a nappy on so it leaks, feeding a child a nutritional inappropriate meal, hanging scrumpled landry badly ... we women are the problem / the ungrateful dickheads.

I think a lot of it is about wider attitudes too.

My Dad was a nurse. He faced judgement throughout he career with people assuming he was gay or that he was trying to sleep with all the other nurses (we have laughed at the contrast of the two judgements!)

A well known Male Primary school teacher last week posted a video in response to someone questioning why a man would want to work with 7 and 8 year old children. There have been many threads on here in the past with people questioning males working in nurseries. It’s hardly surprising people are put off when faced with such judgement.

I have just been in hospital and have never seen so many male nurses. They were definitely in the majority ( cardiology). Pretty equal mix of male and female doctors. I am 70 and things were very different 50 years ago.

That's very positive. Yes, male nurses are definitely increasing. More women doctors, too.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.nurse.com/blog/growing-presence-male-nurses-healthcare-nsp/&ved=2ahUKEwi-n8bWqZGQAxWyQUEAHbiNJu4QFnoECEsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2o_IcjFwZKc8XHGDywMecJ

Davis cited nurses as another male flight profession in her post, but I don't think that holds true now.

Maybe it's different in US though?

I don't know about nursing, but certainly in IT, the lack of women is dependent on where you are in the world. It is more of a problem in the UK, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, northwest Europe. In other places, it may be seen as a good career for women, because it's clean, unlike cleaning or agriculture, and many countries don't have the "girls can't do maths" stereotype.

It's also interesting that many of the first people working in IT were women - they were increasingly pushed out from the 1969s as it's realised it's an area that money can be made - which was made easier in an era where there were things like de facto marriage bars, if not still actual marriage bars, and lower pay for women.

It doesn’t surprise me if subconsciously men think this way. And yes, I can imagine men feeling a level of intimidation for being “the only man” in the same way that some women avoid being “the only woman” - but from a social point of view. We have to remember that we are all human and often gravitate towards people that are like us - as much as we want to admit that we are not like that, it’s ingrained in our being - it’s a fact - and this could look like doing a job where people are the same sex as you.

I think those of us that go against the grain and get a job in a field dominated by the opposite sex, are usually a minority - and are generally passionate about it. You’ve got to have a passion for that job, be stronger willed, and not care. But being the “only one” eventually takes its toll on anyone.

Men are probably “intimidated” for other reasons than the ones you’ve mentioned - maybe not so much sexual assault - but maybe just familiarity, some might just want male company in the same way I sometimes want female company; some might not want to be flirted all over, in the same way I may be conscious of male colleges that “fancy you”; some may be roped in because another male introduced them to the opportunity - which sadly is how many roles are filled these days.

Are men recommended these careers? I did engineering in the days when very few women did, it was never mentioned as a career choice or a university choice for me. So not surprising their were virtually no women doing it.

Oh won't someone please think of the poor Menz? If they're not robust enough to compete in a workspace then maybe they should stay at home? Do some housework? Bake a cake? Make themselves look good for when their hard-working female earner returns home? This is BS, complaints lifted from 1970s feminism and reversed.

It's largely about pay, isn't it? These jobs are lower paid on the whole and less respected with a very heavy workload and responsibility. Most men would rather sit in an office trying to beat the high score of another man...profit margins, sales figures etc. Most men don't want to have to think about anyone else. Why would they get less pay doing something harder and less competitive without a clear winner? Even in creative jobs where you have many more women studying and getting further in education, men will always be the majority at the very top. Look at cookery programmes.

Maybe we need to stop encouraging gaming or encourage games with teamwork more in boys.

Not just an opinion - it's been shown over and over ever since women started having "professional" jobs. Once women start to predominate in any field, pay goes down - and so does status / respect.