Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this is a poor excuse for men not wanting to enter these jobs?

134 replies

PrincessSophieFrederike · 07/10/2025 00:24

I came across this interesting Substack post the other day from a US feminist. She was talking about the lack of men entering professions like veterinary medicine, teaching, library science, etc which are now female-dominated, despite the fact that these were all originally male-only professions. She argues that men are put off female dominated jobs for fear of being seen as less masculine. She had a similar argument for why men are enrolling less in college there.

I also think a factor is that female-dominated workplaces may have on average communication styles which rely more on indirect messaging & ways of expressing conflict, whereas male-dominated workplaces tend to resolve conflict & compete more overtly. Ofc this is a stereotype & not true for many people, but I has some accuracy.

Overall, I do find it a bit of a frustrating excuse. I can understand men who prefer stereotypical male communication styles feeling less comfortable in a female-dominated workplace. Another factor is that women are more likely to promote woke stuff like TRA stuff which many, maybe most, men dislike. (Obvs many women do too, but unluckily women also promote it more). I can also understand concerns about making friends in a female-dominated workplace. (Ofc men & women can be friends, but they might understandably want more men around. Plus a lot of women might be suspicious of a man's female friends- sometimes with good reason.)

I have a lot of sympathy for things like the decline of traditional manual labour & spaces to meet & , the resultant rise in poor male mental health & suicide. But on this issue I'm more sceptical.

Women had to enter plenty of workplaces where until recently they had been legally banned. Sexual harassment is still a big problem in quite a few jobs. Generally women were told to toughen up, for a long time.
Whereas looking up other articles, we're told how men are 'intimidated' by going into a 60% female veterinary class. As I said above, I sympathise with some concerns they might have, but 'intimidated' seems a bit much. Ofc women can be bullies, but I doubt men who enter such jobs will be sexually harassed or seen as less competent due to their sex. Anecdotally, my gran always told me that the few male teachers at the school she taught at were very popular with the female staff. Surely it's similar for other jobs sometimes?

TLDR : AIBU to think it's a bit much for articles to talk about men being intimidated by female-dominated colleges & workplaces, whereas until recently (and some still say this) women were told to toughen up & adapt to male-dominated (and often sexist) ones?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
GoldenRosebee · 09/10/2025 17:53

JHound · 09/10/2025 17:27

What is your source for the claim only 6% of married women worked in the 1900s?

I'm also interested to see number of unmarried working women.

EBearhug · 09/10/2025 18:19

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 10:48

What's the more likely reason?

Scientifically proven differences between the male/female brain resulting in the sexes gravitating towards different things or some woman hypothesising that men are intimidated working in female dominated professions?

Which scientifically proven differences?
Have you read Delusions of Gender (Cordelia Fine) or anything by Gina Rippon?

Maybe anyone can be a cleaner, but our cleaners are some of the most important people in the building and some of the busiest. They probably deserve danger money at some of the desks...

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 18:20

telestrations · 09/10/2025 17:32

One factor may be that previously male dominated sectors and roles tend to be less well paid once they become less so. Not quite sure on cause and effect: if they become less well paid because women enter or women are allowed to enter as they become less well paid. But it's a thing

Overall I hate the idea of an entire sex/gender requiring an "excuse" to not "toughen up" and go into a sector or role they simply don't want. Also most vets are men and veterinary nurses women which mirrors everywhere else in terms of high years and cost of study, high pay and status = mens job vs. low = womens.

Huh? Most vets are women. In the US it’s 67%. Not veterinary nurses, actual vets.

In the UK, most doctors are women. Again, not nurses, DOCTORS.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rkyk7rglpo.amp

Three women doctors sit on chairs smiling and chatting.

More women doctors than men for first time in UK - BBC News

A driving factor is the rising number of women joining medical schools, the General Medical Council says.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rkyk7rglpo.amp

HappyNewTaxYear · 09/10/2025 18:42

5128gap · 07/10/2025 05:33

I work in a women dominated sector. I've worked with some excellent male colleagues. However, I've noticed some patterns in behaviour amongst others.
The expectation of a quick rise through the ranks and very high dissatisfaction if lose a promotion/opportunity to a woman. Reluctance to accept any criticism or their ideas not being taken forward. Need for high levels of praise from women managers. General attitude of being too good for the job, but doing it because it's a good thing to do, so you're lucky to have them. Regular requests for pay increases despite earnings on par with role and sector. Setting themselves apart from women, expecting special treatment, being 'looked after', performative incompetence of lower level tasks so women 'help'.
So my conclusion is that there is a pattern where men have a different outlook towards 'female' jobs. Summed up be thinking they are too good for them really so should be seen as a special prize and afforded special treatment.

Are you in teaching? I found exactly the same as you in the world of education.

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 18:59

JHound · 09/10/2025 17:27

What is your source for the claim only 6% of married women worked in the 1900s?

what percent of married women worked uk 1900 - Search

It was the first result on Bing. Google has it at 10%. What appears to be more likely is the info from the 1901 census which has married women with a listed occupation at aprox 13%. Which is still very low.

what percent of married women worked uk 1900 - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=what%20percent%20of%20married%20women%20worked%20uk%201900&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&lq=0&pq=what%20percent%20of%20married%20women%20worked%20uk%201900&sc=12-44&sk=&cvid=B935BB89CD504DD98E895DE276DC7036

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 19:04

GoldenRosebee · 09/10/2025 17:53

I'm also interested to see number of unmarried working women.

Around 60 - 65% of girls/women aged 15 - 64.

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 19:06

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 18:20

Huh? Most vets are women. In the US it’s 67%. Not veterinary nurses, actual vets.

In the UK, most doctors are women. Again, not nurses, DOCTORS.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rkyk7rglpo.amp

Exactly, that's the whole point of the articles I linked! That once the % of women exceeds that of men, men no longer join.

OP posts:
Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 19:10

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 19:06

Exactly, that's the whole point of the articles I linked! That once the % of women exceeds that of men, men no longer join.

Who gives a fuck if men don’t become doctors? Certainly not me. Every sub-standard experience I’ve had as a patient has been with a male doctor. I’m in the US where there is more choice and I always choose a female doctor for any kind of issue.

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 19:10

EBearhug · 09/10/2025 18:19

Which scientifically proven differences?
Have you read Delusions of Gender (Cordelia Fine) or anything by Gina Rippon?

Maybe anyone can be a cleaner, but our cleaners are some of the most important people in the building and some of the busiest. They probably deserve danger money at some of the desks...

'Which scientifically proven differences?' men and women's brains studies - Google Search

'Maybe anyone can be a cleaner, but our cleaners are some of the most important people in the building and some of the busiest.' I'm not knocking cleaners for one minute. My sister used to do housekeeping at our hospital. I'm simply pointing out wages are determined by qualifications, ability, rarity and demand.

Before you continue to Google Search

https://www.google.com/search?q=men+and+womens+brains+studies&sca_esv=2afd3ac4ae6c0b30&ei=a_fnaO_nN-qyhbIPiJiB6Q4&ved=0ahUKEwivyem42JeQAxVqWUEAHQhMIO0Q4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=men+and+womens+brains+studies&gs_lp=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-6NfhK-6BgQIARgHugYGCAIQARgKkgcHMTEuMTguMaAHyssCsgcHMTAuMTguMbgH6BrCBwkyLTExLjE3LjLIB6sC&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 19:12

It’s like we’re trying to have it both ways?

We want greater female representation but not too much because that’s “male flight” which is A. Bad. Thing.

CuckooPond · 09/10/2025 19:16

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 19:12

It’s like we’re trying to have it both ways?

We want greater female representation but not too much because that’s “male flight” which is A. Bad. Thing.

We want equality. Which is never a bad thing.

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 19:20

CuckooPond · 09/10/2025 19:16

We want equality. Which is never a bad thing.

Why is men choosing not to apply to jobs that are female-dominated of any relevance to this cause? What do you propose? Forced 50:50 distribution in professions, with hundreds of women in medicine, dentistry, law etc. losing their jobs?

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 19:44

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 19:10

Who gives a fuck if men don’t become doctors? Certainly not me. Every sub-standard experience I’ve had as a patient has been with a male doctor. I’m in the US where there is more choice and I always choose a female doctor for any kind of issue.

Bc it's better for men to be gainfully employed, & I certainly don't want politicians to start saying that the only way to get men into jobs is to push women back to the kitchen. And I wouldn't put it past some of them to say that....

OP posts:
OneAmberFinch · 09/10/2025 20:00

I think the causation is probably mostly that men are attracted to higher status, higher pay and riskier jobs. Rather than that women enter, and a cabal of managers lower the pay in disgust.

When programming was a methodical secretarial task, lots of women did it. In the 80s when it became associated with the possibility of riches, gambling on a startup, transforming the world etc, men became interested in it.

But why is this not associated with a drop in salaries since there is an influx of labour?

Specifically the men who enter are interested because of the rewards potential and chance to make it big. They actively want to grow the field and the total rewards available. They join risky fields that might boom or might bust, no-one knows yet. They are okay with the chance of receiving 0 compensation (startup fails) in exchange for the chance of joining the rising tide.

I think relatively fewer women are okay with that deal, and want/need to work in industries which are stable, have core hours etc. This isn't the same thing as easy necessarily, but more secure and predictable. If lots of women enter a mature, stable field, the effect is more likely to be that it simply decreases wages rather than "grows the pie" rapidly as you see in, say, AI booms.

Where I think there might be a circle is that people observe the above, that men seem to be joining the sexy, high status careers (because they are) - and then flips it so if they see a lot of men in a field, they think it must be a high-status field.

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 20:23

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 19:44

Bc it's better for men to be gainfully employed, & I certainly don't want politicians to start saying that the only way to get men into jobs is to push women back to the kitchen. And I wouldn't put it past some of them to say that....

I also want men to be gainfully employed, but I don’t care what they’re employed in! Why would we want to row back from the great achievements towards female representation in fields like medicine, law, veterinary science etc.?

I’m genuinely struggling to see the argument here?

GaIadriel · 09/10/2025 20:25

60% female? Hmm, I'm betting that most male dominated jobs are way more disproportionate. Like, no way are 40% of refuse collectors female. The clue is that no feminist has ever protested the phrase 'binman'.

It's usually the same excuse too. That women are intimidated.

CuckooPond · 09/10/2025 20:35

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 19:20

Why is men choosing not to apply to jobs that are female-dominated of any relevance to this cause? What do you propose? Forced 50:50 distribution in professions, with hundreds of women in medicine, dentistry, law etc. losing their jobs?

It isn’t. I don’t in the least mind what men choose to work as, as long as women aren’t restricted by gendered ideas about ‘women’s’ and ‘men’s jobs’. As someone who’s in the middle of a big house renovation, I would love, for instance, to be able to have a wide choice of women builders, plumbers, electricians, plasterers etc.

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 20:37

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 20:23

I also want men to be gainfully employed, but I don’t care what they’re employed in! Why would we want to row back from the great achievements towards female representation in fields like medicine, law, veterinary science etc.?

I’m genuinely struggling to see the argument here?

Well manual labour jobs have gone right down. If men are saying away from medicine etc & going to college less, and also avoiding HEAL jobs (Health Education etc) then what will they be doing?

Even if you don't care what jobs men do (which seems harsh), remember that societies with lots of unemployed young men are prone to violence & unrest. Is that what we need in the age of SM influences whipping up extreme opinions?

OP posts:
PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 20:38

GaIadriel · 09/10/2025 20:25

60% female? Hmm, I'm betting that most male dominated jobs are way more disproportionate. Like, no way are 40% of refuse collectors female. The clue is that no feminist has ever protested the phrase 'binman'.

It's usually the same excuse too. That women are intimidated.

I've heard there's a lot of sexual harassment in the bin industry, though maybe that was slander...

OP posts:
Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 20:39

CuckooPond · 09/10/2025 20:35

It isn’t. I don’t in the least mind what men choose to work as, as long as women aren’t restricted by gendered ideas about ‘women’s’ and ‘men’s jobs’. As someone who’s in the middle of a big house renovation, I would love, for instance, to be able to have a wide choice of women builders, plumbers, electricians, plasterers etc.

Me too! I get a thrill when I order an Uber and a female driver turns up. Or when they announce the pilot’s name before take-off and it’s a woman’s name. I love seeing women in so-called ‘men’s’ jobs.

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 20:43

GaIadriel · 09/10/2025 20:25

60% female? Hmm, I'm betting that most male dominated jobs are way more disproportionate. Like, no way are 40% of refuse collectors female. The clue is that no feminist has ever protested the phrase 'binman'.

It's usually the same excuse too. That women are intimidated.

Actually 27% of refuse collectors in UK are female, and this number is growing year on year. As a feminist, I think more women in trades & other similar jobs is good,,and many feminists agree. Not as much of a gotcha as you think 🤣

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.biffa.co.uk/biffa-insights/biffa-women-in-waste-careers&ved=2ahUKEwjvo42475eQAxVpUkEAHXW0A_QQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Qt5R7Z5XvAd-5xlxiNGQX

https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.biffa.co.uk%2Fbiffa-insights%2Fbiffa-women-in-waste-careers&usg=AOvVaw0Qt5R7Z5XvAd-5xlxiNGQX&ved=2ahUKEwjvo42475eQAxVpUkEAHXW0A_QQFnoECBEQAQ

OP posts:
Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 20:43

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 20:37

Well manual labour jobs have gone right down. If men are saying away from medicine etc & going to college less, and also avoiding HEAL jobs (Health Education etc) then what will they be doing?

Even if you don't care what jobs men do (which seems harsh), remember that societies with lots of unemployed young men are prone to violence & unrest. Is that what we need in the age of SM influences whipping up extreme opinions?

How did you get that I want a society with lots of unemployed men from “I don’t care what men are employed in”. I meant I don’t care if they’re a post man or a plumber, a teacher or a tree surgeon. As long as they’re employed.

But you knew that.

PollyBell · 09/10/2025 20:53

Maybe women should work more instead of relying on men for income?

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 20:55

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 20:43

How did you get that I want a society with lots of unemployed men from “I don’t care what men are employed in”. I meant I don’t care if they’re a post man or a plumber, a teacher or a tree surgeon. As long as they’re employed.

But you knew that.

I know you don't WANT men to be unemployed, but if you don't really care about men not entering jobs like medicine as much/don't think it's a big deal, then what jobs do you think they should be in?

There are still trades/manual labour but much fewer than there once were.

OP posts:
PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 20:56

PollyBell · 09/10/2025 20:53

Maybe women should work more instead of relying on men for income?

Silly comment. Most women on here are urged to always work or at least have an income/backup of some sort. Financial dependence is usually discouraged on here - as a feminist, I don't encourage it. I doubt many feminist do.

OP posts: