To think this is a poor excuse for men not wanting to enter these jobs?

[PrincessSophieFrederike]

I came across this interesting Substack post the other day from a US feminist. She was talking about the lack of men entering professions like veterinary medicine, teaching, library science, etc which are now female-dominated, despite the fact that these were all originally male-only professions. She argues that men are put off female dominated jobs for fear of being seen as less masculine. She had a similar argument for why men are enrolling less in college there.

I also think a factor is that female-dominated workplaces may have on average communication styles which rely more on indirect messaging & ways of expressing conflict, whereas male-dominated workplaces tend to resolve conflict & compete more overtly. Ofc this is a stereotype & not true for many people, but I has some accuracy.

Overall, I do find it a bit of a frustrating excuse. I can understand men who prefer stereotypical male communication styles feeling less comfortable in a female-dominated workplace. Another factor is that women are more likely to promote woke stuff like TRA stuff which many, maybe most, men dislike. (Obvs many women do too, but unluckily women also promote it more). I can also understand concerns about making friends in a female-dominated workplace. (Ofc men & women can be friends, but they might understandably want more men around. Plus a lot of women might be suspicious of a man's female friends- sometimes with good reason.)

I have a lot of sympathy for things like the decline of traditional manual labour & spaces to meet & , the resultant rise in poor male mental health & suicide. But on this issue I'm more sceptical.

Women had to enter plenty of workplaces where until recently they had been legally banned. Sexual harassment is still a big problem in quite a few jobs. Generally women were told to toughen up, for a long time.
Whereas looking up other articles, we're told how men are 'intimidated' by going into a 60% female veterinary class. As I said above, I sympathise with some concerns they might have, but 'intimidated' seems a bit much. Ofc women can be bullies, but I doubt men who enter such jobs will be sexually harassed or seen as less competent due to their sex. Anecdotally, my gran always told me that the few male teachers at the school she taught at were very popular with the female staff. Surely it's similar for other jobs sometimes?

TLDR : AIBU to think it's a bit much for articles to talk about men being intimidated by female-dominated colleges & workplaces, whereas until recently (and some still say this) women were told to toughen up & adapt to male-dominated (and often sexist) ones?

Yes to your point about the prestige of a field lessening sharply as more women enter it.

Or could it be that men are attracted towards more physical work?

I've watched my ds and his friends avoid jobs that are mostly desk based, and I know within veterinary practice in the UK, men are more represented working on larger animals.

This is presumably what is going to happen with computer science and coding now a lot of girls schools are doing it rather than only allowing computing. Even our local grammar only has computing at the all girls school and boys are allowed to do coding/comp science. If the girls want to take science based subjects at A Level they move to the boys school...it's sySTEMic. Sorry, couldn't resist.

So what happens when we prove women are just as capable in all fields? Do men just sit at home and cry?

Men are also put off by other accusations.

you can see it on here - people say “why would a man want to work in a nursery? He must be a paedophile (or more gently - I worry about his motivations)”

same also happens for primary school teachers.

"Summed up be thinking they are too good for them really so should be seen as a special prize and afforded special treatment." is increasingly what I think. Ive worked in the public sector and in creatuve SMEs and there is a constant minority on men who express this and expect special treatment from everyone, other men included.
I also think there is something about female majority spaces which make men feel awkward, but they'll have to suck it up.

I've seen it on a lot of threads here. Women have outright said that men should not work in nurseries, and have removed their kids from ones when men started working there.

It's all well and good complaining that men don't want to do certain jobs, but when there are social barriers created by women to prevent them, why would any man bother?

Complaining that men don't do childcare, but calling them paedophiles when they do, isn't a good look.

That's a good point . I'm not totally sure though if that's the whole story...

This US psychiatrist turned Silicon Valley blogger has some rather odd opinions, but I do think his article on why women do some jobs and men others has some truth.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/

It's true that IT used to be a female job, but then when professions like medicine and law became more accepting of women, women tended to gravitate there. Was this bc they were less sexist? Or is it that given the choice, women prefer to do medicine, law etc but not IT?

It's also true that other countries like Iran have far more women in STEM. But these are also cultures where family influence what their children study more than here, esp women. (Similar also for Asian American women & STEM I think, but need to check where I read that) Where women have more choice, gender choices seem to become more divergent, not less, as per the Nordic gender equality paradox.

He also points out that the female-dominated jobs don't always lose status & pay : OBGYN is still well-paid, for one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equalityparadox

The problem is unfortunately that men are the biggest perpetrators of this kind of abuse in these settings. If men are as a sex struggling with empathy - which we know stems from lack of reading, and willing to do things like pay for AI girlfriends to be submissive, they are not going to be as safe around vulnerable people. Men have a choice on the way forward with these things and as a society we need to pay more attention to the building blocks of empathy if we want a more equal setting in the workplace and even crime reduction.

If you look at the studies in the book, ‘Of
Marriage and the Market’, there is usually a clear link between more women entering a field and the pay then dropping, and the reverse when more men enter it. It isn’t 100% a given, as per the examples
you have given, but in general it is the case. I have observed the rise as more men enter my own field of law, and it’s been fascinating!

I studied IT at uni and was the only woman on my course. In the workplace I was the only woman on my team.

im afraid I’ve got no time for men going into places where they’ll be one of 40%. I thought they thought themselves as the “stronger sex” 🙄

Sorry, what? Men don't read so they've no empathy?

I expect it’s true. Things coded as feminine have lower status and accordingly are lower paid which is probably part of the turn off for men. The only exception to this appears to be industries where women are objectified (such as modelling.)

I read that while teaching is feminised a disproportionate amount of headteachers are male. Which is part of the status / pay issue.

https://literacytrust.org.uk/blog/empathy-day-reading-for-pleasure-and-empathy/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3559433/

https://www.arts.gov/stories/blog/2025/men-women-split-reading-real-and-persists-amid-historical-rate-declines

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/culture/44896/men-have-an-empathy-problemso-lets-get-boys-reading-fiction

Why?

I think this is a “majority /default” problem. If have seen this numerous times, especially on gender and race. When individuals see themselves as the “default” in society then they tend to react in this manner to entering any space where they are a minority.

And they still demonstrate zero empathy for minorities / “non-defaults” who may express similar discomfort in similar environments.

Yes, it feels ironic to say the least to see MRAs make this kind of argument while in the same breath saying that men are stronger & more resilient.

Tell me, have consultant surgeons experienced a sharp decline in their standing in society as the female representation increased from 1 in 20 to 1 in 5 over the past 30 years? How about senior barristers, which show the same trend? Or Magic Circle equity law partners?

Where is this steep lessening of prestige among these professions that you speak of?

I dont think it's that complicated. Female-dominated professions tend to pay less and men tend to go after better-paid jobs.

But a profession doesn’t BECOME lower paid as women enter it, as has been suggested. That’s a complete nonsense.

Actually there are studies that show it does - the Feminisation Effect - programming and nursing are 2 examples.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927537121001378

If there are instances of this (and there are as many instances showing the opposite trend - see my post above about surgeons, barristers and law partners), it will be a simple case of supply and demand. When more people qualify in a field (of any gender), then wages typically come down, because you don’t need to pay more to attract talent, ie there are fewer jobs than people able to do those jobs and looking to do them.

I think the issue is partly that (for all kinds of complex and frustrating reasons) it seems that when women become a large percentage of a particular profession people then seem to devalue that profession and it tends to end up lower paid than it was.
I don't know what the solution is but it is a trend I have noticed a lot

But by that logic all women in the same job roles would be paid the same as men in the role - which we know isn't the case. If more women enter and we know they are usually paid less than men, of course the average wage will go down.

And also, it's always worth comparing female dominated areas of law /medicine against areas that aren't yet female dominated, rather than just generalising about law /medicine as a totality

Noone is saying it is what should happen. But it is pretty clear it is what does happen (allowing for a bit of a lag time for salaries to shift of course)

There are all kinds of reasons than two people with the same job title don’t get paid the exact same wage, such as working part-time, performance rating, different levels of experience etc. But two junior doctors working the same shift pattern with the same years of experience earn exactly the same. Two associates on a law graduate scheme with the same performance rating will be paid the same. And so on. Don’t forget also that the female consultants, senior barristers and law partners are relatively more junior (as the increase in female representation is a fairly recent phenomenon). A 40 year-old law partner of any gender will get paid less than a 60 year-old partner who has decades more experience.

Talking about pure averages within a profession tells us nothing.