To finally agree with a junior doctors strike

[Horsehow]

Junior doctors have decided to strike as they are being overlooked for jobs / training posts which are instead given to international applicants. I’ve always abhorred their money grabbing strikes in the past, but support this one 100%. UK doctors should be recruited where possible, and international graduates only turned to where we cannot find a suitable recruit in the UK.

Wrong. As usual. Debate over.

IMGs dont need a PhD to CCT. Why would an IMG that has CCT'd worry about doing a PhD/lack of PhD as CCT gives them a golden ticket to work in other countries/their home country.

Those numbers are ridiculous.

Is there a table somewhere with the information? That means 79,000 IMGs applied for UK NHS specialty training.

It’s an entirely separate issue.

By your ratios I obviously only meant the ratios that you quoted.

Yes, I agree it is a separate issue and isn’t related to the one being discussed.

Nothing obvious in what you wrote - the use of “your” suggests that it is data that I have generated myself, rather than that published by a governmental body. Clarity of sources of data are incredibly important as their credibility can support or undermine an argument in equal measure.

Data from internet randoms really should not be part of this discussion.

@Marbles10

You will find the answer to your question about standards here.

McManus, I.C., Harborne, A.C., Horsfall, H.L. et al. Exploring UK medical school differences: the MedDifs study of selection, teaching, student and F1 perceptions, postgraduate outcomes and fitness to practise. BMC Med 18, 136 (2020). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12916-020-01572-3

Lots of IMGs make applications to multiple specialties. I don’t have the figures to hand, but the last data I saw suggested that a minority were applying for literally every specialty available (psychiatry, GP, medicine, surgery, A&E, paeds, anaesthetics, pathology, etc etc).

That doesn’t mean they got in of course. Such a scattergun approach suggests they probably didn’t. But it skews the numbers.

Most IMG trainees I meet are settled in the UK, their spouse may be working in the NHS, and their children are settled in school. I don’t meet many who plan to CCT and move straight home.

@Tigerbalmshark IMGs already here need protection too. If jobs are so competitive they will also miss out and lose their visas and be forced to return home. 99,000 applications for 13,000 jobs is not a sustainable situation, and many F2s from last year do not have jobs in medicine now. JCF jobs often have 500+ applicants before they close them, and locums have dried up.

If we are not going to employ our own trained doctors then we need to close medical schools, not expand them. It's not good value for the tax payer otherwise.

Yet you say you've met many IMGs happily settled here. So they obviously do get some jobs. And many F2s are definitely not getting jobs.
We are the only country who do not give priority to our own trained staff. Why ?

That’s disgusting

Surely the amount of F2s that became unemployed in August is proof?

Also with 63% of specialty training applications coming from IMGs in 2025 why would anyone think the IMGs are not getting jobs? They mostly have more years under their belt which favours them in a points based system over UKMGS who have been doctors for less than two years when they apply to specialty training.

93 countries prioritise their own graduates.This country cannot continue to be the training academy of the world.

The government need to go back to the Resident Labour Market Test or applications from those with 2 years NHS experience. Both of which would prioritise UKMGs and protect IMGs already working for the NHS.

Well I hope that I clarified swiftly enough for you Marbles. Mine was a perfectly proper use of the English language although I could have used far more words if I’d appreciated how put out you’d be by the use of the word ‘your’.

At least you now have a link to research. There are also plenty of real life examples of really poor quality F1s and F2s doing the rounds, but that of course would be swept aside as ‘anecdata’.

Indeed the so called ‘random’ allocation for F1 has made the relatively flakey quality of some of these graduates more apparent in what used to be the most competitive geographical areas to work in. The difference will be less stark in what used to be the less competitive deaneries.

Yes I would agree with that. I tend to meet IMGs who have either gone into ST4 training following a few years of SCF posts, or who are going down the CESR route.

My point was that 79000 applications does not mean 79000 different applicants, and people applying to all 65 specialties are not likely to be of particularly high calibre.

I’d be very happy to support a “two year NHS experience” rule. It would be better for the trainees too - dealing with culture shock whilst also undertaking a highly demanding training scheme is not easy.

@Tigerbalmshark the actual number of applicants was posted earlier. This year predicted to be over 50,000

Really? At the expense of our own doctors that we have just trained up?
Thats what's shameful

Totally agree. My son has 100k in debt. UK paid 250k to train him.

Has done 2 years as ST1 and ST2 in surgery but unable to get in to higher surgical training this year due to outrageous competition levels.

In 2025 63% of applicants to UK NHS specialty training were IMGs.

If you read the previous threads you'll see that with a bit of scratching the figures are nothing like as bad for UK med school graduates as some here would have you believe.

Beyond that, in terms of what's shameful, that's simply a matter of your politics differing from mine.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/competition-for-specialist-training-programmes-in-the-nhs-sector-views-and-the-governments-plans-for-resident-doctor-training-posts/#heading-4

It is sad to see the same people repeating their unfounded comments.

There are no accurate published figures on how many unemployed FY2s there are in the country. The BMA July survey only had approx 1000 respond and a significant number of them admitted to not even bothering to apply for a next level job.

If you do not apply then it is no ones fault but your own that you have not got the training job you wanted.

Guaranteeing an 18 yr old entering medical school a job, effectively for life with little competition to improve themselves but knowing they can fall back on something does not produce quality doctors. Sadly some posters think they know everything it takes to train a good doctor. No other profession does that and medicine is not unique.
Competition makes you work harder and I want that quality in a doctor who goes the exra mile to get the training they want and are more likely to go the extra mile for me - their patient.

"Totally agree. My son has 100k in debt. UK paid 250k to train him.
Has done 2 years as ST1 and ST2 in surgery but unable to get in to higher surgical training this year due to outrageous competition levels."

Because those of us in the profession recognise that a lot of people with only ST1 and ST2 struggle on the next step - they need a bit more experience.

But then what would i know when i train them!