Page 12 | To feel a bit bad for the met police on bbc panorama undercover

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 02/10/2025 08:16

Whatafustercluck · 02/10/2025 08:09

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure I agree.

The British policing system is based on Peelian principles - policing by consent - in a way that other police forces around the world are not. It's why they don't routinely carry guns, for example.

I've been in policing for 20+ years, not as an officer but as a senior staff member. In my experience, there's always been a tension even within policing about whether it's a 'force' or a 'service'. The authoritarian macho types are attracted to the tactical firearms units and the dog sections etc, whereas others gravitate towards neighbourhood policing (utilising different skills/ personalities) and child protection etc. The units you'll encounter on demos (other than the large ones where officers are drafted in from other forces) are generally the alpha males, there to not think twice about using force. Even within the police service, it's acknowledged that this tension exists. In other words, policing reflects society as a whole, with roles that suit a variety of personalities.

Whenever I watch things like 24 Hours in Police Custody, I'm always struck by how well the Custody staff treat the person they're booking in, without prejudice. Yes, I know they're being filmed, they know they're being filmed. But having once in my career overseen an independent Custody visiting scheme (normal people who volunteer to visit custody suites unannounced and speak to detainees about their treatment), I can tell you that, in my local force at least, the vast majority of those detained - some very hardened criminals - stated they were treated fairly and with dignity, as is right when our judicial system is founded on innocent until proven guilty.

When I've been on large marches in London (e.g. the Stop Brexit march) there were no arrests, a carnival atmosphere, and police officers chatting happily to protesters.

Now, as for the Met. Even within policing, the Met has a terrible reputation. That's not to say that these officers don't exist in other forces (they do, I've sat on professional standards committees where they've thrown the book at them), but just that it's the largest police force in the UK, policing a densely populated territory, and comes with quite a significant number of challenges as a result. I mean, they literally threw Cressida Dick under a bus for not dealing with the problems quickly enough and replaced her with.... another man - who, similarly it seems, has failed to root out the culture that seems to still prevail, despite his obvious professional credentials.

I've begun watching the documentary and it makes me sick to the stomach, precisely because I've always been exceptionally proud to work with, for the most part, some extremely caring, hard working people, dedicated to protecting people from harm. This kind of coverage does them all a huge disservice and damages the trust and confidence needed to rely on policing 'by consent' in this country.

Police forces all have problems, because racism and misogyny is again gathering pace in society more generally - and recruitment practices focus on drawing officers from a wide variety of backgrounds in order to try to reflect societal makeup. That comes with risks, as well as benefits. What they need to get better at is utilising technology and social media monitoring better within the vetting process, so that those who pose the most significant risk (by virtue of either their associates or views) are weeded out at the earliest opportunity. The police cannot afford to have officers like this damaging public trust.

Op, I don't feel remotely sorry for these individuals for all the reasons I've stated.

And I guarantee that I will turn up to work today and be met with eyerolls of "yep, it's the Met again".

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Agreed, there are many decent cops out there who must've been aghast at that documentary last night.

frozendaisy · 02/10/2025 08:16

The police can take your freedom away.

They have great power over others, this is why their morals and attitudes matter.

If they are prejudiced against suspects or victims the bedrock of crime and punishment collapses.

Why feel sorry for them? They wouldn’t feel sorry for you if you had been attacked.

Bagsintheboot · 02/10/2025 08:18

BeardofHagrid · 02/10/2025 07:54

Yes, secretly recording people when they think they are in a private setting shouldn’t be allowed. Do we really want to do back to the dark old days of the Fake Sheik?

They weren't in a private setting. They were at work or in a pub. Neither are private.

And again, if you wouldn't be happy to have your name attached to it, you shouldn't be saying it at all. This is a good basic principle regardless of where you are and what you're saying and who you're talking about.

LeBonBon · 02/10/2025 08:19

Sarah Everard's killer was jokingly nicknamed "The Rapist" and I'm sure some of his comments/views on things were shared by his colleagues and encouraged (based on what we saw last night). Everything is not a big joke. Change is needed. If exposure and shame is what it takes then so be it.

Simplestars · 02/10/2025 08:22

SirBasil · 02/10/2025 07:52

the Met Police should be worried. IMO they need to all reapply for their jobs and be properly vetted to do so.

I couldn't agree more.
Most of them are.low level attainers who couldn't get a job elsewhere.

HedwigEliza · 02/10/2025 08:23

Simplestars · 02/10/2025 08:22

I couldn't agree more.
Most of them are.low level attainers who couldn't get a job elsewhere.

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What a ridiculous statement. Your evidence for that is…. what?

Simplestars · 02/10/2025 08:24

HedwigEliza · 02/10/2025 08:23

What a ridiculous statement. Your evidence for that is…. what?

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Look at their record and history.

OneFlewOverMy · 02/10/2025 08:25

Ybvu and an apologist. One joked about rape and a woman being kicked in her pregnant tummy!

Ihateboris · 02/10/2025 08:26

They vile pigs all need to be named and shamed. No sympathy from me.

NeverKnowinglyUnderstated · 02/10/2025 08:26

It's right that these individuals should be named and shamed, listening to them was absolutely horrific.
It's the decent coppers (and I really want to believe the majority are) that I feel sorry for, they're all being tarred with the same brush.

ilovesooty · 02/10/2025 08:27

Bloodyscarymary · 01/10/2025 23:27

I get what you’re saying and my work talk would also be boring. However, I am assuming you’re not a police officer dealing with rapists and violent thugs day in and day out - naturally your work chat in that case is going to veer into opinions on that.

I’m not saying their views weren’t horrible to hear or that they haven’t fallen very short of the standard we should expect from police officers, but I can see how it would be easier for them to start sharing how they think we should shoot rapists in the dick once they’re a few pints in vs you or I at our work drinks. So for the average person it’s really shocking to talk about that, but for a police officer it’s a daily topic at work.

Which is why the clips should have been shown to higher ups and them be fired, but I don’t see the public benefit in identifying the individuals in question. They could have blurred their faces and used their conversations as “examples” of the terrible culture, we didn’t need to know the identity of the police officer who was basically just spouting Reform talking points with a police brutality twist.

And I just totally disagree that if you don’t say anything you’re ashamed of you shouldn’t have to fear documentaries like this. It’s like saying “people with nothing to hide have nothing to fear” to excuse mass surveillance. It’s Orwellian!

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If you seriously think people shouldn't be exposed for saying things like those police officers said, their identities should be protected and the public shouldn't know about their behaviour, words fail me.

MyKhakiPanda · 02/10/2025 08:29

Bloodyscarymary · 01/10/2025 21:46

Just watching the BBC Panorama doco “Undercover in the Police” and I can’t help feeling a bit uneasy.

Yes, the behaviour shown is awful and they should lose their jobs, but having their faces, names and secretly recorded conversations, sometimes even off duty over a pint broadcast feels like a bit of a violation of privacy.

I honestly would have thought secret filming like that couldn’t even be made public, but clearly it’s legal or the BBC wouldn’t air it.

I’m not excusing what was said at all. The culture clearly needs to change. But is it fair to single out these particular officers when the problem is obviously widespread?

I also felt some of the more junior officers had just absorbed the culture around them, and at times the journalist might have been nudging them into certain topics. A few of the comments even felt like dark humour or going along with pub chat. Still unacceptable, but if you secretly recorded doctors or other professions that probably use a lot of dark humour to get through it, I’m sure you’d hear things that would seem really callous to an outsider.

Absolutely they should be fired/reprimanded, but do they deserve complete public exposure like this? AIBU to feel uncomfortable about it?

YABU they deserve everything that’s coming their way

YANBU it’s too much personal exposure when the real problem is the Met culture not these individual cops

They deserve everything they get, OP. Would you feel the same if you were reporting a rape allegation and these people were in charge of helping you?
The only way toxic culture will change is if it's exposed, and I can't see the MET doing that themselves anytime soon. These programmes are important because they force investigation and ultimately change, and if the MET really want a culture where their officers are trusted and respected by the public then they'll make the changes needed.

Ihateboris · 02/10/2025 08:29

If anyone is interested, Nick Ferrari is talking about this now on LBC.

2021x · 02/10/2025 08:31

CleopatraSelene · 02/10/2025 03:29

Hmm, OK...some of the stuff was clearly over the line though, the treatment of the pregnant woman or the sexual comments at WORK, not the pub.

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Yup people go over the line… they should be investigated, there should be process and now they have been on the TV they can’t bully or refute anything they said.

However, this is only a risk that can be managed not eliminated.

Shakeoffyourchains · 02/10/2025 08:33

Bloodyscarymary · 01/10/2025 22:11

This guy I didn’t have a problem with being in the documentary because he was discussing a case in the office. I also don’t have a problem with the recording of actual instances of police violence or discussions about that.

The ones that made me particularly uncomfortable are the off duty conversations, or the jokey things that were clearly just bravado (like the finger breaking guy - I really doubt he has ever done that and we have zero context of what else was being said by others in that conversation).

The most concerning to me was the really young officer at the pub drinking with the journalist, who was prompting him, agreeing with what he said and literally egging him on to share his views when he realised he had gone too far. Yes he was horrifically racist - he should be fired as police officers must be held to a high standard of morals. But I’m not sure he deserves that conversation to be completely public for the world to see for all eternity.

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Yes he was horrifically racist

But I’m not sure he deserves that conversation to be completely public for the world to see for all eternity.

What the actual fuck have I just read? Why should a horrific racist NOT be exposed for what they are too all and sundry?

Pamcakey · 02/10/2025 08:33

I haven’t seen the documentary and I’m not defending the whole thing - I have seen the vile WhatsApp messages around the Sarah Everard case etc… but from reading the BBC article, I would just caution to say be careful of judging things taken out of context.

This is purely in relation to the custody sergeant who bailed the guy who allegedly kicked a pregnant woman in the stomach.
You cannot remand people just because they’re nasty. The case needs to be ready to go to court the following day. If there are further enquiries to be done before the case meets the threshold test, you cannot charge and remand someone, regardless of how horrible they are.

This is why murder suspects are often in custody significantly over the 24 hour time frame (and this needs to be authorised from senior officers and later on the courts).

I appreciate I don’t have the full story either so perhaps this isn’t the case and the option to remand was available, but I think more context is needed before slamming the custody sergeant.

usedtobeaylis · 02/10/2025 08:35

They're public servants. They should have thought of that before they utterly failed to uphold their standards.

Dweetfidilove · 02/10/2025 08:36

Met found to be toxic again...

People feel sorry for MET officers being outed again as racist, criminal and misogynistic...

Off to practise my 'surprised face' 😒.

alfonzi · 02/10/2025 08:36

Shakeoffyourchains · 02/10/2025 08:33

Yes he was horrifically racist

But I’m not sure he deserves that conversation to be completely public for the world to see for all eternity.

What the actual fuck have I just read? Why should a horrific racist NOT be exposed for what they are too all and sundry?

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I know attitudes like this are vile.

AguNwaanyi · 02/10/2025 08:38

Change2banon · 02/10/2025 00:09

What post?

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The OP

usedtobeaylis · 02/10/2025 08:41

One of the reasons Panorama has done the undercover report is because the met ISN'T dealing with their 'bad apples'. There isn't the level of accountability there needs to be, there's isn't self-policing, there's too much pandering like the OP. Panorama is one of the last outlets that even does undercover investigations.

thepariscrimefiles · 02/10/2025 08:42

Pamcakey · 02/10/2025 08:33

I haven’t seen the documentary and I’m not defending the whole thing - I have seen the vile WhatsApp messages around the Sarah Everard case etc… but from reading the BBC article, I would just caution to say be careful of judging things taken out of context.

This is purely in relation to the custody sergeant who bailed the guy who allegedly kicked a pregnant woman in the stomach.
You cannot remand people just because they’re nasty. The case needs to be ready to go to court the following day. If there are further enquiries to be done before the case meets the threshold test, you cannot charge and remand someone, regardless of how horrible they are.

This is why murder suspects are often in custody significantly over the 24 hour time frame (and this needs to be authorised from senior officers and later on the courts).

I appreciate I don’t have the full story either so perhaps this isn’t the case and the option to remand was available, but I think more context is needed before slamming the custody sergeant.

The other police officers were disgusted that the sergeant had bailed the man who kicked the pregnant women in the stomach. There was a clear boot mark on her belly and when another officer spoke to him about this case, the sergeant (a complete misogynist who talked graphically about sex all the time creating an atmosphere of hyper-sexualty in the workplace) said 'that's what she said' about being kicked in the stomach. So even with clear evidence that it had happened as she said, he basically said that he didn't believe her.

I assume that the perpetrator was either the woman's husband or boyfriend and he was released to go back to the pregnant woman's home. How scared and let down must she feel?

thepariscrimefiles · 02/10/2025 08:44

Dweetfidilove · 02/10/2025 08:36

Met found to be toxic again...

People feel sorry for MET officers being outed again as racist, criminal and misogynistic...

Off to practise my 'surprised face' 😒.

39% of people who voted agree with the OP. It beggars belief.

alfonzi · 02/10/2025 08:45

thepariscrimefiles · 02/10/2025 08:44

39% of people who voted agree with the OP. It beggars belief.

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It was 40% before, I am disgusted. Hope it was just the nighttime crew skewing results and sanity prevails during the day.

Zanatdy · 02/10/2025 08:46

Their behaviour is disgusting and I have zero sympathy for them. I work for the Government in immigration and the days of inappropriate comments are thankfully long over. If I was at work drinks and someone started talking inappropriately i’d ask them to stop (as i’m the most senior person there usually) but I have faith that other colleagues would also stop that conversation dead. I am thankful i’ve not needed to do that. We have standards to uphold whether in work or not, so pretty disgusting some police officers still behave in that manner. I can’t say i’m that shocked though.