Is there a worrying class divide with parenting?

[teaandcupcake]

I saw a tweet (and subsequent TikTok) about this and found it interesting.

The author of the tweet and the girl on TikTok were basically saying they notice the way their middle-class friends parent their small kids is screen-free, lots and lots of books, lots of time and attention. Their toddlers can read and write. In contrast, teacher friends at deprived primaries have shared stories of reception starters in nappies, children who have no idea how to turn the page of a book or use a knife and fork.

The concern being that the divide between middle-class and working-class children is going to be so vast in the future we ‘can’t even fathom it right now’

I found it interesting as the topic of reception children starting school without reaching basic milestones has been discussed on here many times before but not whether it’s class issue and what’s causing this.

I can't edit my (very long) post but, yes, I always ate at the table with my son amd we talked a lot. A very small table in the corner of the living room. We had no dining room. But we always ate at the table.

Mamy children are coming into school now unable to speak in sentences. Not because of any additional need but because their parents have just never talked with them.

I live in France. School used to be optional from ages 3-6 and compulsory from age 6 onwards. In 2019 they made it compulsory from age 3, or rather from the September of the year the child turns 3, so some of them are only 2. They did it to reduce this divide. The kids still don't start learning to read and write until they are 6, but the ones from deprived backgrounds now have a compulsory three years alongside all the ones from more middle class backgrounds, during which time they will learn how to use the toilet, sit quietly on a chair and use a knife and fork if they don't already know how to do these things when they start school. It also avoids children who speak another language at home starting school at age 6 completely unable to speak French.

It’s too simplistic to use class. We know some kids are leaving schools with very low literacy levels. You’ll know who those children are likely to be in your schools. The work place and life in general is not set up for people who have poor comprehension. Just think of all the stuff you have to understand to function at the most basic level in work and life and then imagine someone with a reading level of age 8 or lower trying to do this. It’s exhausting and reduces opportunities to work and access help. Then you throw kids into the mix and the pattern repeats itself not because the parent’s don’t care (obviously there will be some in that bracket) but because they don’t know what they don’t know and therefore to expect people to magically pull themselves out of this situation like a Hallmark movie is unreasonable. Low literacy is a huge issue here and schools are trying to tackle it but without overnight success. We all know people who have managed to succeed in the face of poor reading skills but they are few and far between save can’t be used as a reason not to help those who are struggling.

Most people, regardless of class, don’t give their toddler a tablet whilst in a buggy unless they have SEN needs. That’s not a class thing.

well we could get into a whole other topic about how I think the education system needs a complete reform on this country and it is outdated. I think the comprehensive system has had its day and all children shouldn’t be forced into GcSe’s and A-levels or university and actually now a growing focus on trades and manual jobs should come into the fore. AI is changing the world and we should be changing the education system so that we don’t end up with massive issues down the line.

I don’t personally have an issue with a reformed system of funnelling children who are more academic into an academic route and those that aren’t into a different path. 11 is too young though and it shouldn’t be a rigid system of no choice.

but why shouldn’t some non academic children we able to learn how to brick lay or be a plumber or become professional carers whilst at school at age 14?

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I suspect a lot of that is true. These days you don’t get into grammar school without significant parental involvement. It’s not straightforward, parents need to understand the different schools’ exam styles, prepare the kids for the exams etc. Most working class parents don’t have the inside track/ confidence to go through the whole process.
Also true that the old working men’s evening classes, cultural activities etc seem to be a thing of the past. You see the old buildings dotted around London but there original function seems to have disappeared.

I recall reception teachers complaining vociferously at the DC's leafy mc cofe primary that the children could not do up their buttons, put on their ties, do up their laces, etc. We got quite a pass ag letter at the first half term telling us all to focus on teaching our dc to dress themselves.

The issue in 2003 was actually that children's clothes had moved on to a world of Jersey interlock, fleece and velcro. The school's uniform code had sadly not moved with the world. DD really struggled (dyspraxia). I put velcro under her buttons and on the button hole side! She went to reception reading though and within two weeks of being transferred to an independent had a lap top for written work rather than a daily ruck about cursive writing! Screens helped her and didn't stop her taking a first from Cambridge and becoming an English Teacher. State school didn't particularly help her.

I've seen this said so often - and I don't understand it. I may be hacking at a can of worms here, but why are schools not teaching children to the right standard?

I didn't have special tuition and neither did my friends What's changed?

Yes, absolutely.
However, I would expect that your DH probably had a good home environment,m growing up, good education roughly in lines with his needs and receives good support from you.
Would you be prepared to say what his job is?
I'm guessing mainstream profesional ie legal or financial?

Btw, really true about adult education! I only noticed this last year, when I thought I should do a class in something interesting. I assumed there'd be loads, as there always has been whenever I've enquired in the past. Nope. Very sparse. And anything challenging cost quite a bit, not the price of a pint as it used to be.

There's a very good offering online. I guess that's to be expected: hello, social isolation and digital exclusion 😢 If you can barely read, how likely are you to be able to find and access a suitable online course?

Primary schools’ priorities are not to get kids into selective schools. There’s no stats on that, they are not assessed on that. They are assessed on year 6 SATS tests and that’s what they put their energies into . Plus, probably in some cases, teachers may have ideological objections to grammar schools.

I disagree that the advantages are all one way. It depends on the area. We have great community facilities and playgrounds around here and there is a real culture amongst less well off families of using them. So a lot of children will get outside playtime either after school or at weekends in the park and playground. Amongst more traditionally "MC" families (although the boundaries can be blurred), their kids are often doing activities or in ASC and so don't always the same opportunities for outside play. We live in a gritty, socially mixed, aspirational area, where you have great wealth (£5m+ houses) alongside rows of terraces and then social and council housing and blocks of flats so I don't know if that makes a difference to the upbringing our kids are having. The kids all battle their own way to school on public transport from the start of secondary, and are streetwise and tough as nails because they have to be. They're not coddled and they have a lot of independence. They socialise a lot in person in big groups that hang around in the town centre and annoy everyone else, so although I'm sure they do have lots of screen time, lots of them are obviously meeting up in person too. I am told that bubble tea is a popular first date 😂.

I am jealous of their upbringing tbh. I think some level of "streetwise" is good. I was brought up in a protected bubble in the middle of the country and I'm not sure it's helped me in life. I see all that "Tousle-headed children floating through the woods in neutral colours and playing with wooden toys" crap on social media and I feel a bit sorry for them. The kids round here would eat them for breakfast.

The curriculum has changed so much. Curriculum reform in 2014 meant that we are now teaching children more complex concepts at younger ages and, in the main, they don't have the capacity to understand them. It's largely regarded as not fit for purpose by teachers. Especially those who are more experienced.

Less time is spent on the fundamentals.

Children aren't coming into school (at every age) ready to learn.

Support from parents has declined.

More children with complex needs coming into schools that don't have the resources to meet their needs, which increases stress for all pupils and reduces learning time.

Etc...

I'm not sure if we are working class or middle class as I have a degree, dh has a masters but we are on a very low income and pretty much always have been (household income was £25k a year at it's highest, 10 years ago).

Our dc had access to lots of things before they went to school but we had the children's centre back then where we could do all kinds of activities for a low price. most of the churches would do a baby/toddler group for £1 a family too. the health visitors were a lot more involved back then too. The dc had much simpler tastes back then too, they loved going to watch new houses being built or going to the supermarket. Ds1 liked to dance around to the wiggles on tv from when he was nearly 2 but he didn't have a tablet or play on the computer until he was much older. My younger ones weren't interested in tv until they were about 4. Meanwhile my much richer SIL's dc were glued to in the night garden from 6 months old and had tablets by their first birthdays. My dc have tablets and watch tv now but we limit it as they need a lot of exercise or they don't sleep.

I know that's anecdata and it's different now with so many activities for children being much more expensive. When my dc were little the children's centre used to hire the local soft play for a couple of hours once a week and charge families a small amount to get in. My dc loved it but it's all gone now. Health visitors are just there for appointments now if you have concerns, they don't come to the baby groups anymore to give general advice about potty training, weaning etc.

I brought my first two children up in a very middle class area.

My youngest is 5 and we now live 150 miles away, on the edges of a notorious West Midlands council estate (life can change in a heartbeat).

The difference is staggering. It was like I was transported to a different planet the first time I set foot in the school playground.

@elliejjtiny - squeezed middle, same as me!

A bit of a digression but I think the traditional "class" system is probably an outdated and unhelpful prism through which to see this anyway. The class system as we understand it is usually understood to be based on the Marxist definition of the person's relationship to means of production: ie if you work for someone else in a non-managerial role you are deemed to be "working class", if you work in a knowledge based industry or profession you are "middle class" and if you control the means of production or own land and capital (and thus don't need to work) you are "upper".

Nowadays the relationship with the means of production is largely irrelevant: the opportunity to be paid by someone who controls the means of production is vastly diminished. Jobs are being hollowed out, both in white collar and blue collar industries, so "working class jobs" and "middle class jobs" are shrinking and the pay differential has narrowed between the two categories and people are flailing about feeling uncertain about how to support themselves and where they sit in the system. A lot of people are freelance or fractional and don't sit cleanly into any definition. More people own their own businesses, many people work cash in hand. Then there's the aforementioned "underclass" which is essentially incapable of supporting itself other than through dependency on the state or on state-subsidised low income work.

There certainly are still class hierarchies and hierarchies of advantage and if anything these are more pronounced than they were 50 years ago. But I think we need a new set of definitions as the current ones confuse more than clarify.

It’s disgusting and small minded to suggest that working class people can’t parent their kids. Some people are shit and lazy parents, granted. If they’re middle class, they buy in help.

I remember commenting on somebody’s post on LinkedIn about taking colouring books on an aeroplane and she couldn’t comprehend the idea that that might keep her kid entertained for half an hour while they flew on holiday.
And she was a very senior person in an organisation that you would all know.

I think there’s always been a class divide, but social media seems to be exacerbating it. MC families seem to be just as tech/device reliant in my experience but I do think parenting strategies are different in response - if you are paying for education or investing heavily in after school activities (sport, music etc) you are more motivated to combat/limit tech use, plus MC parents are always being bashed for being pushy and/or absent due to work etc, so there is a considerable amount of guilt fuelling it.

We are all - class aside - the first generation of parents navigating the impact of technology and the pervasiveness of social media and, as a result, are not well equipped. I don’t really trust what I am reading on SM and the news any more - in that I don’t believe the class divide is actually getting worse at all. The nature of it is changing, with respect to schooling/parenting, but I think people posting about those things have a personal agenda. A more constructive conversation should be based around how we can support ALL parents in navigating device use, peer pressure, social media etc.

He talks about parents in his kid class. So 30 kids plus a bunch more he plays sport too. The type of work the parents do, NHS doctor, lawyer, consultant, IT manager, estate agent are all in the above £60k bracket or more (London area), he was actually surprised how there was no one doing a working class job.

This will always be an issue with a comprehensive style education though and actually it combines natural academic ability, with class, with wealth, with parental involvement

any mix of the above has an effect of children’s attainment. It isn’t just one thing.

my children found primary school too easy and I spent a lot of time asking the school to teach them harder things but they couldn't. They got bored going over and over the same things. But they come from an academic family. That was just a pure quirk of their birth. They didn’t do anything to earn that ability. Is that connected to being middle class though? Yes as far as because we are a naturally academic family we have earned more on average. I therefore topped them io with extra curriculars such as music lessons - So it becomes a self perpetuating cycle doesn’t it?

there were children in the class who really struggled. And the teachers are having to bridge the gap between these groups of children. Almost impossible.

There must be lots of SEN toddlers around then...

I agree.

And with budget cuts its only getting worse. I haven't had a TA for 6 years now and it really shows.

I have children in my class (I teach year 4) who are working at Reception level, year 1, year 2 and others at year 4 GD. Others who have significant SEND related behavioural or trauma needs. I'm expected to meet everyone's learning and SEMH needs in one room by myself.

I can't.

The issue is really complicated but I tend to think that uneducation and ignorance breeds uneducation ignorance and laziness breeds laziness, irrelevant of class. If parents don’t know, understand or can’t be bothered to support, guide and teach their children then I question why they’ve had them in the first place.