To think putting vat on private healthcare when many people use it because the NHS won't treat them is monstrously cruel

[DervlaGlass]

I know so many people who have had to pay for cancer diagnostics or new joints because they couldn't obtain care from the NHS. Not rich people - people who have to take out bank loans to fund it.

What is wrong with labour.

Cutting welfare and taxes will directly lead to increased costs for NHS, Police and Councils in both short term and even more in longer term. There is plentiful evidence linking poverty to physical health issues and outcomes, socioeconomic issues inc crime and disorder, and amount of council authorised support needed.
Cut welfare so you can cut taxes and you hugely increase costs long term.

These very few other options that raise enough money. To raise £40bn you need to find 4m people to each pay £1,000 more. The

It's like fighting with gravity. It's how things are, not how you'd like them to be. Yes, there will be downwind costs of cutting welfare - it still needs to happen.

Guessing you have no personal experience of trying to get PIP or CHC.
When CHC assessors come in to the meeting knowing there’s no money left so they can’t offer any care for the person who is unable to feed or toilet themselves so they just have to stay in hospital inappropriately.
When you’ve sat with someone in their 20s who can’t see the point in life as their disability needs are so clearly inconsequential to our society, then say ‘oh but we have to cut services further’.
Funny how so May are happy to impose ‘hardship’ on others, eg private education, but as soon as it effects them reality bites eg private healthcare.

Starmer clearly said VAT on education was going to housing and defence, not education, i.e., they lied, but yes I agree a tax on healthcare could provide more money for NHS.
However at same time borrowing and spending os out of control and Labour have made the cost of servicing that debt to rise.
You simply can't balance the budget by simply taxing more and more. You also have to make targeted cuts too. In private sector you can't balance budgets by asking for more money, you will be sacked.
The out of work benefits bill for example is the highest it has ever been. Labour have increased the numbers out of work through policy choices, so the taxpayer is now footing the bill. That needs cutting.

My personal experience has absolutely no bearing on the limited number of moves a government can make to manage an economy and the inevitable consequence of taxing productivity into the ground.

Whilst most do say make someone rise pay I don’t think more tax is the answer.

Reeves pledged the last budget was a one off tax hike. It’s because they’ve messed up with the NI they have such a shortfall. That last increased tax is why she’s scrabbling around for more. It’s a downward spiral.

I completely understand but these are the conversations we need to have. We need a consensus across parties, of which services we want to fund and which we don't. Unfortunately there simply isn't the money to sustain the current levels of services (which aren't even good in many areas ie the level of service is shit due to lack of money).
1 way of doing this, which some more enlightened countries do, is to give tax incentives for anyone using private healthcare or schools. This way they are still paying in to support the services they don't use and relieve the burden from the state because fewer people are using state funded services.

Cutting anything is emotive and not a vote winner but if we offered tax incentives to not use state services then we wouldn't have to make cuts or raise taxes.

And yet all this dancing around discussions about tax rises, or please god no more provenly harmful austerity driven cuts, but no one is mentioning the biggest problem with our economy. The thing which has cost us billions upon billions each year. The biggest national self-harm in history.

No disagreement here on that!

Yes, the damage done to the economy, and the well being our children with the COVID interventions will rattle on for decades to come.

I dont agree with vat on private health care BUT if the gov insists on charging it on private school fees then I think its only correct that its charged on health care etc. My opinion is that neither should charge vat.

Good one. Guessing you still believe the big red bus too 😂

@SomethingFun

Everyone agrees someone needs to pay more tax and everyone also agrees that this should be someone else as they feel they already pay enough tax. It’s exhausting. I wish we could try making more money but there is no political will to make the country more attractive to growth businesses and investors.

Nail on the head. We need genuine economic growth, not the constant lazy "increase tax" or "reduce spending" which never works. We're in a global marketplace and need to be competitive Worldwide. Govt spending on benefits and public spending etc to "drive the economy" doesn't work because it stokes inflation and increases imports (balance of payments deficit), so the money just leaves the country.

Health insurance is our biggest outgoing, we go without holidays and other luxurys, drive an old car. Kids did not go to private schools. We aren't flash or elitist in any way, initially we had the insurance through work, but chose to take on the policy after redundancy.
I'm bloody grateful that we did as I now have cancer and I've been shocked at the poor level of NHS care, very grateful that I have other options.
Private healthcare is also asfaik taxed with insurance tax already?

Although not having done this isn’t helping France much. They too have an electorate demanding higher spending and borrowing.

@twistyizzy

I agree that we should give tax incentives for private healthcare and private education, not punish people via taxes. People going private are saving the taxpayer and that needs to be reflected and incentivised, not punished. Like you say, some other more enlightened countries do exactly that!

Also, we also need to follow other enlightened countries re tax relief for employment related expenses such as commuting to work and other costs such as work clothes, personally paid for training/exams, self development, etc to encourage people to work, work more, and develop themselves to improve skills etc.

We're so backward in this country as regards tax, it's a national embarrassment.

I was a remain voter. I'd still be a remain voter now. But, what can you do?

It’s what we voted for. The idea we’d go for tax rebates on private health and education wasn’t going to happen. I agree with you though. Maybe after we’ve experienced Labour people will vote differently.

Rejoin

😂 Never going to happen and I'm too pragmatic for the wishful thinking game.

Tu sais bien que le système français est vraiment différent. Chez nous, les retraites, l’aide sociale et tout ce que l’État fournit sont parmi les plus bas d’Europe, et clairement bien moins généreux que le modèle plus “socialiste” en France.
Résultat : ça a creusé un énorme déficit. Les manifs récentes, c’était surtout contre les gels et les coupes budgétaires qu’on voulait imposer pour combler ce trou, pas pour demander plus de services.
Heureusement, en France la philo et l’esprit critique font partie du bac, du coup les gens sont souvent moins moutons et plus prêts à s’opposer.

🙄

At least they have a head start on us so they can play the cautionary tale when a nation indulges its delusion of wealth.

I know MN letting French speakers on here .. quelle horreur 😮