Paying maintenance

[throwaway005]

Just putting it on here to see others thoughts

chatting with some friends earlier about child support and a father being involved with the kids. I kind of think I know how this will go but here goes

So I agree with abortion, many women get pregnant and keeping the baby for a variety of reasons doesn’t suit her. Contraception fails, rape, financial the list is endless and a woman should decide what is right for her and her body. Which is her right but what about the father’s right to choose whether to be a parent or not? I’m not talking about men that have planned pregnancies with a partner or have agreed to be a dad due to an unplanned pregnancy. I’m talking about the men who say right from the start they don’t want to be a dad or be involved in anyway. On the other hand a man can’t force a woman to carry the baby the take full responsibility when the child is born and the mother to pay support.

as it is right now whether they want to be involved or not and if they say straight off that they don’t want to be a dad should why should they have to pay child support? A woman has the choice to keep or end the pregnancy but a man is forced to go along with the woman’s wishes.

for the record I’m a female and I had an unplanned pregnancy (2 types of contraception failed) I spoke to the father and said I was happy to go it alone and didn’t want or need anything from him. I was late 30s and child free.

im not sure how it could be policed or what the options would be but something like the man legally signing away parental rights from the start of the pregnancy and the mother signing to agree she won’t chase it etc

so my question is AIBU to think that if a mother chooses to go ahead with a pregnancy and the father says right from the off that he doesn’t want to be involved should he then be free to walk away with consequences?

Just have an abortion, just have a cup of tea. So simple isn’t it

(I’m being sarcastic)

I think the fathers emotional and financial support should be in the childs life. But if he isnt the child will still be loved and supported.

@throwaway005 I do understand the point you’re making. I don’t agree with you. If there is an accidental pregnancy - regardless of what either party wants to do there is only one person who has to make a decision and who’s life may change forever regardless of the decision made.
A decision for a termination can be traumatic and lead to life long mental health issues - something the male partner doesn’t have to deal with.

Pregnancy in and of itself can have several complications and childbirth can lead to death. These are rare but high risk complications that the man does not have any responsibility that the woman does in this instance. In my mind it literally takes 2 to make a baby even if you didn’t want to - life happens, tough titties. Just read the threads on here, the amount some people pay in child support is pitiful. The men who truly don’t want to pay will find a way around not paying - not declaring income / cutting down hours etc.

I do agree that sexual education needs to be much better and people need to be aware of what the consequences are for having an unintended pregnancy which unfortunately many young men aren’t as they’re getting all their sex Ed from porn.

I also think a great intervention would be some sort of long acting reversible male contraception (implant / injection) funnily enough my husband and I were talking about this yesterday. Then all the men who didn’t want to have/ support kids could have some agency in this regard - wouldn’t help with declining birth rates but would be good for unintended pregnancies especially in the young

Men know when they have sex pregnancy is a risk. They have a legal and moral obligation to pay for the child. You think its ok for a man to not pay for a child if he doesn't want too. Potentially the woman claims benefits and then expects the public to pay for the baby.

How old is your child?
I mean, I have pretty much paid for everything for my DC because it was just the less acrimonious way and I could manage when they were little. And I thought it was in DC’s best interests not to have acrimony. Cumulative effect on me is significant now though. And I do see it as a form of abuse when one parent lets the other bear all the costs despite knowing such costs exist. What kind of person does that?
Both parents have a responsibility to a child which they create. The man’s responsibility does not stop when the woman decides to continue with the pregnancy. I mean, at some point also, the child realises that only one parent is paying and doing everything.

edited to add : I just read the update where you say that you are bringing up baby in a relationship so actually it’s not clear whether this relationship involves you actually paying for everything. It certainly does not involve you doing everything. So you don’t actually have any experience of single parenting 🤦‍♀️ .

If a man is so stupid he thinks “i don’t want a baby” will some how magically prevent him from having one, is he even capable of consenting to sex if he is that stupid?

Child maintenance is about the childs welfare, statistically children of seperated parents who receive financial support have better outcomes than those who don’t. But then I guess a lot of parents don’t actually value the welfare of their children.

Hang on, so you are actually now in a relationship with your baby's father? So is he making a voluntary financial contribution? If not, why not?

No way, men know that sex can lead to parenthood. The rest of society should not have to support his actions because he doesn't fancy paying for what he created. Too many men fiddle their numbers so they don't have to pay much or anything as it is, we don't need more excuses. The child needs to be fed, housed and clothed and that costs money.

But if the dad won't pay who should? The tax payer? Of course men should pay for children they help create!

The man/father could sign away any obligations at the point of birth or before only to turn up years later to find the child and “put things right” having not supported them in any way throughout their childhood - I expect that would cause a lot of distress all round

It is not cheap to raise a child and if both parents are not taking financial responsibility for that then someone else will have to and I’m not sure that your plan would make financial sense to society in general

One is the choice to end a pregnancy.
One is deciding to be a deadbeat.

My partner had one child when he was very young. Was v clear he would never want another. I have two. After some years I said I wanted to come off the pill as it was causing issues. We talked about condoms and I said that's fine but advised him I would probably not abort if an accident occurred, just not for me. He booked in for a snip the same week. It's called taking responsibility. In the end a child is created by two parents.

And to the pp who mentioned including this in sex ed, first we absolutely do teach this at my school and second, stop putting everything on teachers. Parents, social circle, society needs to be loud and clear about this. Men down the pub and on Reddit should not be swapping tips on how to avoid paying, the CMS should use the powers it has and be linked to HMRC. Until we stop blaming women for mens' feckless, reckless behaviour nothing will change.

Men can’t be raped by women, legally. It’s classed as sexual assault instead.

If a man feels so strongly about this then he can choose to not have sex before marriage, which many many men, in many many cultures are religions do. So it is not impossible ;)

If a man has sex with a woman, there is a chance, however small, of a baby resulting.

The bloke's choice point is there - have sex or don't have sex. This is commensurate with the level of risk a pregnancy puts him under (none) and the level of responsibility he's forced to take for that child (financial only - and even then poorly enforced)

If a man doesn't want to have to support a baby, he shouldn't have sex.

A contraception fail, then, to you OP, means these two things:-

1. the female must either be prepared to raise a child alone, changing her career prospects, financial position, social situation and, in fact, her entire life; or she has an abortion, which some will find very difficult and traumatising.
2. The male does nothing and his life isn't at all affected.

Your post is internalised misogyny.

Any maintenance paid is to benefit the child surely? I feel that as a minimum both parents should be paying to feed and clothe thier child.

Abortion for me is a woman’s right to choose. A foetus is not an independent entity capable of survival. So it’s up to a woman to decide if she wants to carry that child. A man has the choice whether or not to have sex with a (consenting) woman and risk pregnancy. Whilst any resulting pregnancy is in her body he doesn’t have a say when it becomes it’s own entity (legally speaking) then he is 50% responsible.

I understand where you're coming from but it seems very transactional and not focused on what's best for the child, just what's practical and "fair" for the adults. I've put "fair" in quotations because it's never going to be fair whilst women are the ones carrying the pregnancy - given the extra risks this attracts, I think it is fair that women get more say on how/if the pregnancy proceeds!

The bloke who did mine told me the effectiveness of vasectomies was over 99%, which seems pretty near 100%. Was I told a lie?

Congratulations on being financially secure enough to be able to do this. You do know that not everyone else is, don’t you?

And presumably for having support around you - or not feeling you need it. Again this isn’t true for everyone.

Choosing to have or abort a baby is not an easy decision. It’s not like choosing whether or not to have a kebab. For lots of woman being pregnant means having a baby, for lots of reasons.

Men do need to pay for any child they bring into the world. Only shit men do not do this.

In an ideal world I agree - either your both in it you're both out. If the woman can opt out so should the father be able to. The alternate argument 'if you doesn't want a baby he shouldn't have sex' just naturally leads to an anti abortion stance as that is true also for the mother, which people always conveniently sidestep.

However, that logic really only applies in an ideal when the woman has made a completely free will decision to have sex. That's of course not always the case.

Do you get any financial support from the state for your children?

Although I understand your point OP, what happens when 5 years down the line the father changes his mind and realises he would like to meet and try and form a relationship with his child? Is he not allowed to because of the contract he’s signed?

as it is right now whether they want to be involved or not and if they say straight off that they don’t want to be a dad should why should they have to pay child support?

Because words are not a form of contraception. Why exactly are you so keen for men to have consequence free unprotected sex? Is it fair that women get the final say? No, but that's nature. Rape isn't fair, men being stronger isn't fair, men being paid more isn't fair, women living longer isn't fair - that's life.