To think Starmer calling Refom and its supporters ‘racist’ is politically suicidal?

[SpottyAardvark]

Starmer has called Reform’s policy of ending indefinite right to remain for non-EU immigrants ‘immoral’ & ‘racist’. Reform supporters, and people who are considering voting for Reform because of their concerns about immigration, will inevitably think the Prime Minister is calling them immoral racists, too. And that will infuriate millions of voters.

I understand that it’s Labour’s conference this week and because he is under a lot of political pressure from his own side, Starmer believes he has to throw some red meat to his party. That’s politics. But Starmer has obviously forgotten what happened to Hillary Clinton when she described Trump voters as ‘deplorable’. That didn’t work out well for her, did it?

YABU = Starmer is right. Reform and its supporters are racists and he should call it out.

YANBU = Starmer has just committed political suicide by falling into Farage’s trap and he has alienated working class voters.

Whose policy is the volunteering one?

I brought this up because it is the newly announced Labour policy.

And this was my point from earlier in the thread. Simultaneously calling reform policies racist while creating very similar sounding ones, will get you in trouble.

Agree. Instead of addressing the issue with those who are concerned about migration, they have now decided to do a tit for tat battle with reform. That’s not the way to win voters over.

Yes it’s a good way to show how policies are received. Volunteering is bad if under Reform, presumably that still stands under Labour.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
Since I'm not a Labour shill, I have no issue with criticising them harshly for it. Reform's policies are racist and I think Labour should resist the temptation to pander to the same vile rhetoric.

I couldn’t care less if it’s Labour, Reform, Lib Dems, Republican or Klingon.

It’s a stupid policy.

Good. I never have tolerated racism and I'm too old and long in the tooth to tolerate it now.

I despise Reform and their fellow travellers just as much as I despised the BNP and the National Front when I was a young adult in the 70s. And I'll never stop calling out racism when I hear it or see it.

“Island of strangers”

I think it also helps to show who is genuinely not racist but is concerned about immigration levels...

And who is constantly complaining about how "ordinary people are being ignored when they talk about immigration. No party puts our concerns first" but then is still unhappy when a party DOES suggest putting policies in place, because that party is simultaneously criticising racism.

I think some of Labours policies are a concession to populism. But at least volunteering isnt actively cruel. It has benefits too. But good god, I thought people wanted to be listened to? But that's not enough if it isn't also hammering people when they are down. At that point it looks like the people who are still unhappy do just actually want an excuse to be racist.

There is clear water between Reforms proposed policies and Labours. Even though of course it's possible to disagree with both.

I mean some posters have been on thread after thread for years saying "it's not racist to be concerned about immigration". But when a party puts forward rule changes to immigration while saying racism is bad, they say it's hypocrisy. I thought they weren't the same thing?

People further to the left who are unhappy at Labours policies aren't really being hypocritical to the same extent.

You brought it up as a sneaky trick question admit it. But the problem for you is, the current Labour government are very centrist/blue Labour and have been making noises about reducing immigration for ages. As a result, lots of people on the left are dissatisfied with them/disagree with their policies. So it's not really a gotcha that someone disapproves of Labour policies. It's like telling an old school Labour type that they are hypocritical for criticising Thatcher when Blair did XYZ. Odds are those people also dislike Blair.

"The Left" (defined as anyone to the left of Nigel Farage) aren't a monolith any more than the right are. But now we are starting to see some of "the rights" masks slip.

You brought it up as a sneaky trick question admit it.

I 100% did and I thought you were very sharp to notice.

But the problem for you is, the current Labour government are very centrist/blue Labour and have been making noises about reducing immigration for ages.

It's not a problem for me. I think Labour are in a difficult spot, and whichever way they go on immigration they risk losing a section of voters to rivals left and right. My only clear feeling here is I dislike labelling large swathes of people as racist, which KS didn't do here, but some of his supporters do. I think its ethically iffy and tactically poor.

He is in a tight spot.
But it's also interesting seeing the reaction of some posters on here to a very clear condemnation of racism and racist policies. Especially when Mahmood is also effectively giving them what they said they wanted (tighter immigration policies. We never had open borders and always had rules for people seeking permanent residency so it's an adjustment you might like/not like). People that are, despite this, mostly still unhappy at Keir Starmer condemning racism because they take it as a personal insult are... Likely motivated by racism not genuine concerns about migration.

I would have thought 'indefinite right to remain' should refer to non-EU citizens, e.g. Commonwealth citizens, people we have a connection to. The citizens of the EU have little connection with us, apart from having fought most of them to a standstill over the last 1000 years. In which case, if Reform is prioritising EU citizens (e.g. likely white) over non-EU citizens (likely not to be white) then it's racist. Whether Starmer should point this out is a moot point - but probably.

No one has to vote for Labour, even if they do try to appeal to people with policy shifts at the same time as insulting people.

Noone has to vote at all.
The outrage/claims of being offended are telling though.

Why? I think they’re good at own goals, fine. Their polls keep going down.

I mean, probably about "desirable" immigrants. But EU settlement scheme likely has a clause that makes it more difficult.

Very probably.

I think he's actually saying the opposite: that the flag is fine, but it's wrong to link it to racist policies.

The flag stands for my country, which should not be equated with Reform and certainly not with the likes of Tommy Robinson.

He has specifically mentioned ‘skin colour’ on that article, yet even the protesters on that march never mentioned anything about the colour of anyone’s skin so I’m not sure why Starmer has jumped to the conclusion that they are being racist by his reference to skin colour in that article.
What I feel the reasons protesters are flying them for is to rebel against the constant jibes about them being racist, being silenced and being told that they are racist for flying a flag… the more people call them racist the more they will rebel.
As people have pointed out on this thread, the word ‘racist’ is being thrown about so much nowadays that the term has lost its meaning and people are starting to say “if you are calling me a racist then I must be”. It’s not racist to fly a flag but in that very paragraph Starmer has somehow linked it to skin colour,

I do not disagree with certain points that some people will be using the flag for racial motives just to get people’s backs up but he can’t point the finger at a whole nation of unhappy people and say they’re intimidating people with flags because they have a certain skin colour. That is simply not true. People fly a flag for many reasons, most do it because they are proud of their country. And this is where Starmer is going badly wrong. He’s not addressing the issue, he’s just dismissing their concerns and turning it back on the protesters and saying they are wrong to be concerned and that they are intimidating people.

Would you say Australia is racist because they wont let you in unless you can support yourself regardless of colour, creed or religion?

If Australia started kicking out people who had already gained the legal right to remain in the country to pander to a racist subset of the population then honestly yes. Nigel Farage also thought such an idea was unreasonable a few months ago. Now post the success of SYLs march he's jumping on the remigration bandwagon and calling to end permanent residency including for people who already have it. That's completely different to changing the requirements for permanent residency going forward.

Pretty much every country has rules around who has the right to remain, who gets permanent right to remain. Including the UK. The false binary of "if you don't support Nigel Farage you must want open borders" is incredibly tiresome by now. As is the "if you object to racism you are calling everyone who doesn't want open borders is a racist". We don't have open borders. We never had open borders. Nigel Farage's policies are racist and unworkable.

If you want an irrevocable right to reside in the uk, get citizenship. It is pretty straightforward once you have ILR. If you don’t, you are always taking a risk regardless of which party is in, as it will always be the government’s right to change visa rules and requirements.

I don't think attacking Reform is politically suicidal- shows that Labour still have a few principles left.

What is potentially politically suicidal, is Starmer and Burnham fighting each other, and especially the Starmerites comparing Burnham to Truss. Ahhh, it's a little while since we had a proper circular firing squad on the left. The Tories- in between running their own circular firing squads- must be rubbing their hands with glee.