To think Starmer calling Refom and its supporters ‘racist’ is politically suicidal?

[SpottyAardvark]

Starmer has called Reform’s policy of ending indefinite right to remain for non-EU immigrants ‘immoral’ & ‘racist’. Reform supporters, and people who are considering voting for Reform because of their concerns about immigration, will inevitably think the Prime Minister is calling them immoral racists, too. And that will infuriate millions of voters.

I understand that it’s Labour’s conference this week and because he is under a lot of political pressure from his own side, Starmer believes he has to throw some red meat to his party. That’s politics. But Starmer has obviously forgotten what happened to Hillary Clinton when she described Trump voters as ‘deplorable’. That didn’t work out well for her, did it?

YABU = Starmer is right. Reform and its supporters are racists and he should call it out.

YANBU = Starmer has just committed political suicide by falling into Farage’s trap and he has alienated working class voters.

You don’t get to be racist and then be protected from hurty feelings.from that that means.

The issue isn't die hard reform voters. It's working class people who feel disenfranchised and don't feel that labour support working people anymore, but rather take their votes for granted to push through a liberal agenda.

Currently they are politically homeless and most people aren't great debators, they have a sense of what is right, wrong and what works for them but aren't great at explaining the intricacies of what they think (I am one of them), the sort of people that talk show radio hosts take great pleasure as professional talkers in slapping down. Not for their beliefs but their way of articulating it.

If you call people racist you don't convince them of your argument, you just make them stop engaging with you and all those that have similar concerns also stop talking about their concerns and just quietly vote in the way you don't want. It's what used to be known as the shy Tory factor.

If you say anyone who votes reform is racist, those who are undecided, but feel that labour isn't looking out for them just feel alienated. You never win elections like that

The same happened with Boris Johnson.

Politicians have been trying to appease them since before Brexit. That's why we had Brexit. They're still not happy. But they won.

At what point do you tell people they need to stop blaming marginalised people for issues caused by other factors?

At what point are you allowed to be honest and tell them they're being racist?
Because the ones shouting aren't being quiet about their hatred are they? Why must immigrants suffer because you don't want some racist (or stupid) white people to have their feelings hurt?

Yes, someone coined a term - ‘suicidal empathy’ or gullibility.

People increasingly keen to ignore what is in front of their face and believe implausible nonsense as long as it suits the narrative they have created in their heads.

Sometimes it seems like a form of self flagellation for colonialism (forgetting that the past is a different world).

The terrorist from Egypt who entered on a small boat then raped a woman in Hyde Park and thankfully was one of the 1% of cases actually brought to trial probably used the same ruse.

They get a pretty good return on their few thousand pound investment. At a minimum a 3 or 4 year stay in a free hotel, food, clothes entertainment provided, longer if you can get a human rights lawyer on your case.

You can choose to be right, or you can choose to win elections. 🤷‍♀️The reality is, if you push people away, they don’t vanish. They don’t go home and rethink things because someone they disagree with called them racist, they just vote for the other lot. And once that happens, you lose, and the people you don’t want in power end up running the show. So how far has “being right” actually got you politically?

You mentioned politicians trying to appease these voters with Brexit, but that skips over why Brexit happened at all. That vote was the result of decades of people feeling ignored and sidelined and taken for granted. And the fact that Leave actually won tells you how widespread those feelings are, and many more thought about voting leave but were frightened of change so voted for the status quo, not for love of the EU but out of fear of the unknown. That’s why writing these people off is such a huge mistake, in reality it is the (silent majority of the voting population). You don’t win a national vote like Brexit with just a tiny group of hardcore right-wingers.

And look at what happened after. Brexit wasn’t delivered by people who genuinely believed in it, so a lot of those voters don’t feel they got what they voted for. From their point of view, they finally won something and still got brushed off by the establishment. So they feel cheated, they won a vote but are still looking for change.

None of this means you let racism slide. But if you call everyone who raises these concerns as racist, you just push the undecided and disillusioned even further away. Calling people names doesn’t change their mind, it just proves their belief that nobody in power listens to them. You’ve got to talk to them and deal with what’s underneath all of this if you ever want to break the cycle.

Our population has increased by nearly 10 million in the last 15 years. That is a huge shift in a short space of time.

We are currently receiving 8/900 new people per day with no sign of it stopping until the weather changes.

We have a widely acknowledged and serious housing shortage. We have a serious issue where many people can’t access timely or effective NHS healthcare and many have no NHS dentist at all.

Some of the men coming in on small boats may well be scientists or doctors but we also know that some are terrorists and criminals. If we want to recruit doctors or scientists from overseas we can issue visas and recruit. We should not need to keep paying out £6 million per day to house these men in what would have been income generating 4* hotels that contributes to the economy and provided more employment if they were still operating as a business.

The reason we have a huge backlog of asylum seekers stuck in hotels is due to under under investment from the last Government creating a huge delay.

No it’s because the number of asylum seekers/economic migrants in small boats has ramped up massively over the past few years as the criminal gangs running them realised they were into a winner.

@BundleBoogie ”No it’s because the number of asylum seekers/economic migrants in small boats has ramped up massively over the past few years as the criminal gangs running them realised they were into a winner.”

We need to stop saying ‘small’ boats. They are huge dinghies capable of holding 70+ people.
One 70 person dinghy is worth £350,000 revenue to the smugglers.

@BundleBoogie ”Some of the men coming in on small boats may well be scientists or doctors but we also know that some are terrorists and criminals.”

Let’s not kid ourselves, there are no doctors or scientists on these boats.

True. £350k the average value of a house pretty much

I'm finding it odd actually, the absolute outrage that is caused by saying that Reform is a party supported by thugs and racists. I lost a friend over it. HOW DARE YOU? I'M NOT A RACIST. SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE BLACK.

Ok so not all of the supporters are thugs and racists, but where are the thugs and racists putting their pick in the ballot box?

Yeah it's a shame because they have raised some valid concerns. Yes I'm concerned about Islamification. Yes I'm concerned about enormous social and demographic changes in too short a time. Yes I'm concerned about the status and safety of women. Yes I'm concerned about overcrowding and over building on our small islands. Yes I'm terribly concerned about the effect this will have on our environment.

However....voting for them? Empowering them? Putting them actually in charge of the country, to run things and administer things and get things done? No. My exDP who remains very dear to me is German. He is highly highly skilled and works in the emergency services. Will he be allowed to remain under Farage? Will he even want to?

Or is he the right colour of foreigner?

Starmer has obviously forgotten what happened to Hillary Clinton when she described Trump voters as ‘deplorable’.

Or maybe he hasn't forgotten what happened to Trump and Vance when they called Democrats 'the enemy within', 'childlless cat ladies'. 'radical left lunatics', etc.

Well not all of their polices will be to do with immigration. And people could support them on other views than immigration (the likelihood is that majority will support on immigration alone) but local policies such as cutting transport funding for SEN students could be seen as ableist and not racist. So the jump from calling a particular policy a term to then exaggerating it and calling everyone who follows the particular party that term is a big jump. Although personally I would be of the view that most of their followers are. Even the vast majority of the posters here who bring in small boats in to this thread where ‘illegal’ migration is not part of what actually happened goes to show that their views are very much driven by one thing.

Kier starmer didn't call them all racists.

He called one particular policy racist.

It is racist.

What has then happened is loads of people have made stuff up to make the people that vote reform more angry and feel more marginalised. The lies have been going on for a long time now.

So the question should be 'how do we stop this disinformation?'

Because as soon as you pander to the lies, as soon as you appease, you are allowing the disinformation to have validity.
You are encouraging the lies.

If labour continue to appease they will lose as many votes as they gain.

There also comes a point where you have to honour your morals and values, and not just chase a vote. Because then it all about power and not about what is best for this country or it's people.

I believe that point has come, and evidently so does starmer.

This policy is racist.

Its a good thing he didn't call reform voters racist then.
I'm not a huge fan of Keir Starmer. But while politicians in general have real failings- they aren't responsible for what goes on in your head. If he doesn't call reform voters racist, goes out of his way to say reform voters aren't racist and then posters on here say "if he calls people racist they definitely won't vote for him". What else can he or any other politician.do? People say they don't like that politicians are liars but if politicians are constantly punished when they do tell the truth/call a spade a spade then politics will keep getting worse and worse. I think he was right to say what he did about Farage and Reforms policies. The policy proposed and the language used by Farage is racist.

There are enough real things to criticise Keir Starmer and politicians in general for without imagining he has said things he hasn't.

Its like me punishing my boyfriend because he was horrible to me in my dream. There's nothing he can do about dream-him. And he does plenty of things in real life that are annoying.

He has said those things though, it was only a couple of weeks ago he was calling reform supporters who attended the mass protest in London ‘racist’ and ‘far right’. He changes his narrative almost weekly. Last week they were ‘racist’, this week it’s only reform policies that are racist, before that he said that we are an island of strangers. So yes he has said a lot of things and contradicted himself an awful lot. As I’ve mentioned many times he’s trying manipulative tactics using words to see which words work and win him the most support.

Revoking an already acquired status is completely immoral. No ifs no buts.

What has then happened is loads of people have made stuff up to make the people that vote reform more angry and feel more marginalised. The lies have been going on for a long time now

Exactly, I've just seen one of the front page headlines - "don't agree with immigration? Starmer's calling you racist!"
🙄
It's irresponsible, and dangerous - wind them up and watch them go.
What happened to reporting the news factually instead of putting their own opinion on like journalism used to be?
I mean, there's always been a political bias with papers but it seems to be something different now.
More like just click bait and hate farming.

Was that a reform rally? I thought it was organised by SYL the known far right agitator. Are Reform the same as SYL or not?
Also what Starmer actually said was
"People have a right to peaceful protest. It is core to our country’s values. But we will not stand for assaults on police officers doing their job or for people feeling intimidated on our streets because of their background or the colour of their skin"

Are we supposed to pretend some of those on the march didn't assault police officers, and weren't trying to intimidate? Find me a quote where he said it applied to everyone on the march. And maybe then also.find proof he said those on the march were Reform supporters.

But a lot of reform supporters were there. I know as I personally know people who support reform and went to the Rally. May have been organised by SYL but a lot of people went.

Those who attacked police were very much in the minority, I believe the rest of the 100s of thousands who were at that march were peaceful. Are we also supposed to pretend the Stand Up to Racism mob and Antifa don’t also attack reform supporters too? works both ways!

Right, but when you say "those who attacked police" you know you don't mean everyone..so why do you assume that "assaults on police officers" means everyone. If I go to a football match and theres a fight the fact I wasn't involved doesn't mean the fight doesn't happen.

I am glad you agree that it's not fair to stereotype the behaviour of a large group of people based on the behaviour of a small number of people within that group however.

I’m sorry you lost me? It was you who brought up assaults on police officers, not me. Or am I missing something 😅

Maybe read my posts in future. You first brought the attacks on police into it. I just responded

Not really.

The people who will take issue with it aren’t voting for Starmer anyway.

I think it’s a pointless thing to say. It won’t dissuade anybody who was going to vote. I am sure there are non racist Reform supports but none of the ones I have engaged with to date.

Absolutely. As a nation we apparently have really short memories.