Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

[Kirova]

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

Oh don’t start the faux naivety. If you were WC you would know exactly what I mean.

I suspect that things are worse these days because in the past, kids with SN were not seen or heard by NT school peers. They were educated (?) elsewhere instead of being sold the modern lie that most kids can be accompanied date din mainstream. I suspect that demand has been even higher for SN schools but it’s much cheaper to pretend that mainstream can accommodate them.

Of course. I wouldn't ever want to suggest otherwise - absolute solidarity to women of all classes trying to raise children as best they can.

It's not really about them being smug - it's that they dominate, their experiences dominate, how they raise their children dominate. Even as a woman now in my 40s it can be difficult to navigate that. My daughter has an activity that is very middle class and I still experience a bit of intimidation around our limitations. Maybe intimidation is the wrong word but I can't think of a better one.

Anyway, I actually think isolation is the biggest problem in parenting and is something groups alone can't combat no matter how they're facilitated.

Surely it's the same as any other measurement of a child's development? Yes, you should of course take into account any mental or physical challenges children are facing, but if those do not apply then it's reasonable to expect a certain level of progress/attainment by a certain point, e.g. being toilet trained by the age of five, etc. Having these measurements in place can also highlight issues that might require medical or other intervention.

Well that’s ignorance on your part regarding SEN and how it presents. If you can’t understand what I’m getting at then there so no point in further discussion.

I agree with what you’re saying in general terms. I agree parents need to parent their children and have consequences for negative actions, I think using screen time as a babysitter for a 4 year old is a terrible idea and I agree that some parents are lazy and just expect school staff to parent their child.

What you’ve described above IMO sounds like gentle parenting or shall I say ‘No consequences parents’ who let their kids run wild, scream and shout in restaurants and defend it by saying “Little Jonny likes to express himself” and I detest that kind of entitlement and that will absolutely have negative consequences when they start school because they’ve been able to rue the roost and never had to follow instructions etc etc…..

Having said that, my original point was, there are those children who could have undiagnosed SEN and would present in the same way as those with feckless
parents. Developmental Coordination Disorder for example is a condition whereby a child would struggle to get changed, do buttons/laces, eat properly with a knife and folk.

What bothers me about this is the assumption that if the child goes to nursery everything will be better. And mum and dad can work full time, making money to give to the government.

Not for aspirational reasons, like a bigger house, more interesting activities and holidays, or a private education, or tutoring or anything else. Working like dogs to keep out of debt as much as possible, making many lifestyle sacrifices along the way. No need to worry about a pension! Rachel's got this. Literally.

I hope there is no plan that your child must go to nursery. It's a slippery slope. Might as well build children's homes from 12 months onwards and we can all pop our kids in there, seeing them once or twice a year, knowing they will emerge at 21 with all the social skills required in the brand new dawn.

Much as I dislike seeing mums walking their kids to school, mum glued to her phone and not a word exchanged, I don't believe nurseries are the holy grail of childhood.

It’s because I’m working class I know how stupid and offensive your post is

Agree with this. I’ve worked with children for 34 years. I have many friends working in Education. Things have changed for children and not for the better.

The school ready situation is one of the most obvious but it stretches to younger and older. Toddlers in pushchairs looking at screens rather than board books. A third of all 11 year olds not fully ready for the Secondary school curriculum because they are behind in English and Maths.

Children don’t get a second chance at childhood. Yes, there will always be children who have developmental delays. But more and more people in Education are expressing concerns about our younger generations.

To ignore these concerns would be downright neglectful.

I find this all rather baffling. I know I'm ancient, but when I started school in 1960, all the children could do buttons, most could do shoelaces and and many could tie their own tie (uniforms were shirt, tie and blazer). The ones who could helped those who couldn't, until they could do it themselves. And I can't recall any who couldn't manage cutlery, we all had school dinners sitting at long tables in the school hall,

I think children with additional needs may have gone to specialist schools though, rather than mainstream. There were certainly "ESN" schools, a school friend's sister went to one. And in my LEA, children didn't start school until they were 5.

But most mothers of young children were SAHP's, and there was no screen time or even daytime tv (apart from the lunchtime news) so I guess they had the time to teach us these skills.

I'm not asking them to? I'm highlighting what is ultimately a recognised barrier to working class women and disadvantaged women accessing group-based services and facilities.

A large % of adults don’t wash their hands after going to the loo so this should be no surprise to anyone. However, that’s not what the poster said.

Is this issue unique to the UK?
Most countries start school at 4-5?
Is it related to Covid again most countries experienced similar loss of public services? Is it related to premature or traumatic births, IVF, and late maternal/paternal age? Lots of factors that could easily be quickly reviewed.
Next it’s extremely obvious there absolutely needs to be a boost in the number of psychiatrists and educational psychologists to get assessments completed within 6-8 months.

I'm sick and tired of hearing adults expecting children who are four to be 'school ready.' These are still early years children. They shouldn't even be in school in my strong opinion, They should be having high quality, rich play based learning. Adults working with early years children should expect to have to help these children with toileting, especially if they empty their bowels. Its normal for children this age to not be able to properly clean themselves.

There is such a difference in normal development at these ages, of course not all children will be ready at the same ages.

Children who are in homes where parents are struggling or who are neglecting normal parenting and interactions with their children are a different matter. But the fact that is an issue in our society is even more of an argument for a strong play based approach to early years to help children to equalise (as far as possible) before starting formal school.

Let’s not pretend people don’t judge us on these things. By all accounts PP will be fine.

They shouldn't even be in school in my strong opinion, They should be having high quality, rich play based learning.

That’s what reception is, it’s just in a school and has a uniform

Developmental Coordination Disorder for example is a condition whereby a child would struggle to get changed, do buttons/laces, eat properly with a knife and folk.

So parents need to do more work with their children on these, to get them as good at the tasks as possible. Or find reasonable alternatives e.g. shoes with Velcro. Not just say “oh well, they have this disorder so they don’t have to try to do it”.

And I say that as someone who has that disorder, and remembers how long it took my parents to teach me how to tie laces as there was no way I was going to be able to manage buckles independently. Thankfully there are more options for shoes now.

Yep!

I'm a big fan of a good nursery and I agree - we should be trying to move away from a model where both parents need to work and use childcare (but only 8am-6pm on weekdays of course).

Only a minority of countries in the world start school as young as we do in the UK - 12% at the last count I read about. And I believe all of these are formal British colonies.

I'm also wondering how KS would know that every child starting school like this doesn't have SEND. Some will not be diagnosed yet and I would say that quite a lot of schools do not want to broach this subject with parents if it is suspected, as they'd be obliged to provide additional support then. Even if the school did recognise a need, it can take a few years to even get that diagnosis. The ADHD wait list in my area alone is six years! I think a lack of early diagnosis is part of the issue.

Toilet training is also difficult if you are both FT working parents doing shifts, and you also need childcare that is on board with the process too, since most send their kids from 9-12 months. I would argue about what is going on in nurseries more than anything, as they'd probably spend more time with children of the FT working parents than the parents do.

How on earth could this possibly only be related to the uk?! Do you think we’re the only country working full time or giving our children iPads?! I know we Brits love to self hate but the only possible way this could be a British only problem is if we were the only ones who set these expectations of 4 year olds, and therefore and the only ones measuring ourselves missing them.

There is research showing that children, boys in particular, are not ready for school until they are 7. Some countries don't start school until this age and do no worse that countries where children start school aged 4.

I actually agree with this. I come from a country with the Reception starting at 6. I've never gone to nursery, just went with other kids to reception aged nearly 6. I was the only kid in the class who could read - that was only because I was curious about the TV magazine and my mum taught me to read at home. Teaching 3-4 year olds stuff that 6 year olds do with ease must be real pain, so I sympathise with the teachers. Me and my friends never had to learn all of this so early and we are fine... actually my country beats the UK in international reading/math comparison studies of teenagers... Starting so early to learn to read/write doesn't really make sense and has no impact in later life.

It seems taboo to say it but there is a lot of shit parenting out there.

My ds was 10 weeks prem, August born not November. He started at 4 (in age 2 clothes). He could sit on the carpet, dress, recognise numbers up to 50 and write his name. Im a lone parent, it was my responsibility to make sure he was ready for school.

This!
My child is nearly 3 and has a speech delay. We talk to her, sing nursery rhymes with her, read to her, encourage her in lots of ways. She watches educational programmers that she engages with aswell but still struggles to say alot of words properly. You can see that she is slowly getting the hang of things but children can sometimes just take more time its not always a case of children being left in front of a screen.