Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

[Kirova]

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

Start your own thread about it then.

Is this a joke?
You’ve clearly proven the point that this poster was making. I hadn’t actually realised it was such a widely held belief among the middle classes that working-class people can’t read or write. I completely understand why this poster feels uncomfortable sitting with a group who, just because she might not pronounce her t’s or has a husband who watches football instead of rugby, automatically judge her to be illiterate.

There is a very big difference between knowing how to tie shoelaces and knowing how to wash your hands. Knowing how to wash your hands requires absolutely minimal dexterity and is very easily learnt. I don’t believe you teach a large number of 10
year olds who can’t wash their hands

More difficult, but not necessarily impossible. And if some things are impossible, people are generally undersfanding. But too many people seem to think difficult = don’t need to bother.

And I’m well aware thar there are often comorbidities, I have several myself.

I don’t remember any accidents. I went to primary school in the 70s and as a March birthday went in September.

He's not talking about children with special educational needs.

For anyone who's genuinely interested, what he actually said on Kuenssberg this morning, whilst listing the govt's achievements generally over their first year, was:
"We said that we would roll out childcare. This is childcare from 9 months to 4 years - for parents and carers that's thousands of pounds saved. For children, it's a game-changer. I'm sick and tired of stories about 4 year olds arriving in Reception - some reading quite well, others virtually in nappies. So, we're going to change that and make sure every single child gets to the starting line in education in an equal position."
I hardly think he has a plan to reprimand the parents of children with developmental difficulties or disabilities for not having their children 'school ready' (a term he didn't use at all, incidentally) and I think OP is being over-sensitive, or isn't a fan of Starmer.
I find it shocking that enough 4 year olds are arriving in Reception these days that it's become news, and I don't think it's a terrible ambition on the govt's part to want to minimise this happening where possible.

You can't send them back though. There's a 'no returns' policy on kids.

What was he doing during lockdown?

Cheering it on, and objecting to easing of lockdown at every turn. He and his party had NOTHING to say about the very obvious harms which months and months of lockdown was causing to children.

I think working class is a flexible definition.... Someone I grew up with went to a private school from 11 onwards, we used to do sleepovers at her house because her parents had a massive garden with a smaller house in the garden we used to stay in. They worked hard, but they were really wealthy. I'm a bit in touch with her and she believes herself to be a working class person, looked down on by the liberal elite etc etc. I had lots of advantages in life but I also worked hard, was the first person to go to Uni in my immediate family, got a "well paid" job but it still took over a decade to save a deposit for a house
But I'm a liberal elite, who is out of touch with the real world because I went to university and have a post graduate job. To some people, "working class" now means you vote a certain way, or have a certain outlook on education etc. which is wrong because many of the first public libraries in the UK were set up as collectives. It was working class people who pushed for the right to roam/public right of way in the countryside etc.
So that's where the "you don't sound working class" comes from. It means the poster can spell etc. but that's a weird stereotype embraced by some people. Like a cosplay.

But also, there are definitely proudly middle class people who hold that stereotype as well. It comes from two groups- self identified WC people. And people who are proud not to be WC. It is annoying.

No one said they are alway impossible, but to acknowledge that having DCD isn’t a parental failure, it’s a disorder, in the same way as those with others ND conditions. At 4 it likely won’t have been diagnosed in most cases so it could look like last parenting when it absolutely isn’t.

You don’t sound too understanding if I’m honest, especially given you have it yourself. You’ll also know that DCD is different for different people and some will find things more difficult than others.

Well in the last couple of years we are seeing pupils who can’t use school toilets, who have accidents and parents think staff will help. That is at secondary school. By this stage it’s going to make their lives intolerable. And I am not talking about pupils with special needs or medical conditions. And no, staff cannot help…

I grew up with 2 parents working full time in the 70s. My parents thought it was completely humiliating that I wasn't toilet trained until 3, which was seen as very late.

Perhaps terry nappies and not having a washing machine were the crucial difference, not whether your parents were at work or not.

I'm "sick and tired" of UK schools failing, and their culture and practice not being based upon evidence-based, paedologically sound principles, but here we are...

@Bedtelly I'd say potty trained for starters. Able to be a little more independent of mom and dad. Using cutlery. Sitting still for short periods. Following instructions. Knowing that they have to listen to the adult, both to learn and for their own safety. Able to dress themselves, or with very little support to do this. Put their own shoes on (velcro fasteners are ideal). The fact that you are asking this question tells me you are doing a good job.

We have children still in nappies because mom thinks they're not ready for big boy pants (so it's ok for school staff to clean up poo bums because mom WON'T potty train. Yes, we have a mom who won't!) Kids who get up and run off when they're told to sit with the class on the carpet. Kids who kick and bite when they're stopped from running along the corridor out of the classroom. Chew toys are becoming a fashion/coping mechanism. We have 5 year olds telling teachers to eff off. And I'm not talking of ND children. I'm talking of children who have come to school having not been parented, not been corrected, never been told the word 'no', have no idea how to interact with others, don't know the meaning of kindness, haven't been taught to use good manners. Parents who have put their kids in front of a tablet, very little interaction, don't read a book to them.

TBH, OP you sound as if you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. He wasn't referring to children who have additional needs but, as others have said, children who haven't been toilet trained etc due to poor parenting.

I can believe this - DS is in year 5 and says some of the boys he knows don’t wash their hands after using the bathroom. He sees them.

One of his school friends is met by his mother every day with a bottle of full sugar Coke. The poor child is fat

I agree that's the approach we had - they could do things but needed more support and time (so many times started earlier) but I didn't find this understanding.

I tended to find the home support often dismissed - concerns dismissed often told they weren't bad enough for support - frustraion they struggled or were behind with things like coordination despite best efforts - and when big problem were hit told the extra home support had masked the issues ie your at fault there as well.

Dmum was frankly taken aback at attitude schools had towards her GC in early years towards occaional toilet accidents- she said it was more expected when we were young- expect we were all trained but that occaional accidents happened and were just dealt with - she volunteered and worked as dinner lady in schools so saw more than most.

I just worry this will be turned on all parents - even when it later much clearer that the child is ND or has SEN and very likely the parents have been trying to get near disgonsis/services for bloody years.

At 4, nearly 5 years of age, that's more than enough time to potty train a child. Working or otherwise.

That's surely not normal.

Not least because toilet access at DC secondary was not really there - (and yes girls did trurtant during periods) and nieces school in another part of UK was similar. They locked toilet and heavily resticted access to point it often wasn't there in practise.

They did in both cases have toilet passes but getting one was involved GP and hospitals and then actaully managing to get right staff member to unlock - and yes many cmplained and schools insisted it wasn't as restrictive as kids found it.

There is an argument that the reason toilet training takes more time now is because the current nappies are so good. The children don’t feel the dampness.

Nurseries can’t give the 1-2-1 attention consistently.

Who was looking after you if they were working?

The last reception class I taught (27 kids) had 3 in nappies and two constant wetters. That was 2 years ago.

In France the maternelle (nursery school) system is designed to get children ready for primary school, which starts at 6, not 5. Maternelle is not compulsory but it's free and 90+% of French kids go to it starting from 3, or 2½ in some places.

BBC radio did a very good documentary on it a while back. The head teacher explained that their aim was "In year 1, the children learn to master the shoulders; in year 2, their elbows; and in year 3, their wrists. Then they're ready to learn to write in the first weeks of primary". It's more complicated than that, of course, but the point is the acquisition of successively more subtle motor and other social/personal skills, exactly as you have listed here. French primary teachers are paid to teach and definitely not to attend to basic social skills or toilet training.

If summer born June-August children are school ready, then the older children have no excuse unless they have disabilities. Depends on how premature too eg 36-37 weeks isn’t that premature compared to those who need a longer stay in hospital.