To think that on average women ARE less keen on casual sex? (NB. I have no objections to casual sex if ethical)

[MusettasWaltz]

This isn't a TAAT but it's partly prompted by an AIBU I saw recently where the OP was saying promiscuous men should be shamed. The OP was about my age (19) & seemed somewhat odd, but I was also surprised by a lot of the replies. Many said that women like casual sex just as much as men do, and often appear to like it less anecdotally & in studies because of slut-shaming & other factors. (Some of this might have been a reaction to the OP's stated strong disapproval of casual sex & encouragement of shaming, but most opinions do seem genuine)

I know a lot of cod psychology about women is pretty sexist and inaccurate. But my gut feeling is that on average women probably DO like casual sex less. For one thing, while some promiscuity does have some evolutionary benefit for species like birds, generally it benefits a man more evolutionarily to have casual sex more than it does a woman.

Obvs evopsych isn't the only think motivating people by a long shot, but it does have some truth I think.

Anecdotally, most of my friends are lukewarm at best about it. That could untypical ofc..

(My personal stance is that I could see myself in a casual FWB relationship but wouldn't have a ONS. This is personal, I don't think there's anything intrinsically bad about them so long as people treat each other with respect and aren't too drunk/coerced. Etc)

Curious to know the MN stance. Am I being stupidly old-fashioned? Or is this at least somewhat true?

Its not quite the same to me; masturbation and anonymous sex, but not far off. So, if men seek more anonymous sex than females, whats that about other than feeling safer due to male violence and more entitled? I think its due to fragility and ego. I think men think they are more desirable/handsome/worthy etc if an anonymous woman agrees to accept their penis. That makes it a requirement of a needy ego rather than sex drive to me.

How patronising. It's not reliving your youth to enjoy sex. It's far more likely they have free time now children are off hand and they've got rid of disappointing long term partners.

I think it's both that and sex drive. There does seem to be quite a bit of evidence that men have higher sex drives on average (report masturbating more, report thinking about sex more, though ofc men may exaggerate & women minimise). But definitely a lot of men define their worth partly via sexual success.

I know a lot of cod psychology about women is pretty sexist and inaccurate. But my gut feeling is that on average women probably DO like casual sex less. For one thing, while some promiscuity does have some evolutionary benefit for species like birds, generally it benefits a man more evolutionarily to have casual sex more than it does a woman.
Obvs evopsych isn't the only think motivating people by a long shot, but it does have some truth I think.

So cod evopsych is sexist and inaccurate and the reality is more complex... but you're basing your whole thread on it anyway?

Are your actions motivated by how it benefits you "evolutionarily" - all your actions, not just your sex life? Do you not have a rational brain that overrides your impulses? Are you not more consciously motivated by what will bring you success in the society we actually live in?

I am so tired of people who give evopsych any credence at all. It doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of rational thinking.

Anyway what men and women SAY they want regarding casual sex and what they actually DO want is very different in my experience. I've slept with men who are all talk about being players but their deepest darkest secret is that they hankered after sex in a relationship much more. And I know plenty of women, including myself, who had (and enjoyed) a great deal more casual sex than they ever let the people in their social circle know about. Because everyone is different and gender is not the only thing that determines our sexual desires.

I think for most people, one's appetite for casual sex is very situational as well. It literally varied from week to week for me.

I'd have had a lot more of it had it not been for the danger factor though.

It’s a risk/reward thing I suppose. Higher risks for women (pregnancy, personal safety etc) for lower reward potential (orgasm gap).

I'd like to flip this question a little and ask how many women would have casual sex if they were happily married. Experience informs me that a high percentage of men would but that the majority of women wouldn't. So let's say a married man is propositioned at the gym. I think he'd go for it if he thought he wouldn't get caught. But a woman in the same situation probably wouldn't and I don't think it's just for personal safety reasons.

You think most men would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught....?

Sad if true....

I'm not sure it isn't simply that women are far more discreet, @ginasevern. The gym may be a moot point (though one I attended was shag city central) but surely you've heard about women and the tennis coach, the yoga teacher and the tour guide??

I don't think it's risk vs reward at all, it's just biology. Men have far more testosterone, when you have more of this you have a higher sex drive. It's like saying women can't build muscle the same way or run as fast because of "society". Or that men can't fall pregnant because of "risk vs reward". It's not that, our bodies are totally different.

Sure, but a higher sex drive doesn't predispose you to more casual sex. They could just wank more (and do).

Testosterone does drive impulsivity, though, so it probably does in that respect.

Interesting, I do agree somewhat. But I think there's more evidence than just evopsych that men are more inclined to casual sex than women. I agree evopsch can't explain everything but I do think it probs has some validity.

Otoh incidentally I thought of another reason lesbians have less casual sex. There's less lesbians than gay men, and while bi women might be up for casual sex, there's a sadly too-high number who try & involve a bf, often by deception ('unicorn hunting'). In the recent case of Sidney Loofe, this ended in murder. 😢

Also, I'm pretty sure bi women might be less likely to be covertly cheating compared to married bi or closeted gay men, who make up apparently quite a lot of the cohort of gay men up for casual sex. Closeted women do cheat but think it's rarer & less likely to be via hookups.

It’s more than you think, they are just better at hiding it. Women get very bored in marriage and men think their sex drive is gone but it can be reawakened in a second by someone else.

At 19 I had plenty of casual sex, as did my friends. It was the 70s and pre-aids. Was recklessly unaware of risk other than pregnancy.
Wouldn't do it now if I had my time again because so much is different.

I think men just boast about casual sex more than women do, women are more likely to keep it to themselves whereas men want to be seen as some kind of don and are also likely to exaggerate numbers.

I see how some women on MN get het up about other women here having ONS/FB/FWB, telling them that they have low self esteem or low self respect or are “sluts” (hate that misogynistic word). It’s almost as if they’re worried that these more sexually adventurous women may lure their men away. They also appear to find it impossible to believe that women do not have a hive mind and that some do not catch feelings.

I’ve had a fair bit of casual sex in my past and if I became single again, I would probably do it again. I like feelings-free sex.

Yes, that's true. But that's not really what I was saying. Let's say this is a happy marriage, the woman loves her husband and is pretty content with her sex life (this scenario does still exist)! If under those circumstances a bloke at the gym slips her his phone number (even if he was gorgeous) I'd don't think she'd go for it. Whereas I think a man with similar life circumstances would. Or at least he'd certainly think about it.

Edited to say, I'm not saying the woman wouldn't be flattered but I don't think her first thought would be to book a hotel room and get her knickers off - and not just for safety reasons.

I have read Mumsnet many years on and off as a man, interesting threads , good to see things from a female perspective especially on the feminism board.,but one thing I wouldn't do is comment on womens sex drive , experiences etc because I am not female, so conversely don't think you have any authority to make any simplistic comments on male sex drives

Most of us are just commenting on our own experiences and not with authority. Based on that, my pretty extenstive experience informs me that men will make use of their dicks whenever possible (unless medical reasons come into play). There aren't many female rapists, pedophiles, sex pests or offenders are there.

I would agree somewhat. Women do seem to flag in sex drive when with a long term partner but then not w a new one according to some theories... And also women hit peak libido in their 30s, whereas men hit it in their 20s (another reason college hookup culture works better for men often)

Tbf I think sometimes women get cross at the idea that we may naturally on AVERAGE have lower libidos. I do get why as stereotypes have been weaponised against women in the past. But having a higher (or lower) libido doesn't make you a better person, if women do have lower average libido it shouldn't be a big deal or mean that ones with high libidos are shamed

Think this is crucial - it can take time to show a man what you need to orgasm a ONS is not always conducive to this which is why FWB can be more attractive for women - plus safety but it is still ‘casual’ sex I.e. sex for the sake of sex

Couldn't that be higher drive gone badly awry? Combined with other bad characteristics? I don't see why that makes the 'neediness' theory more likely than the 'higher drive' theory.

For me, the question is how can we determine sex drives. How can we strip away the centuries of slut shaming women, men feeling entitled to womens bodies, male violence and the resulting fear in women, the low rape comviction rate etc? Thats what we would need to do in order to look objectively at sex drives and its not possible. The nearest way to strip out those factors is possibly in a long term relationship. Where my experience tells me that women have higher drives and get bored with one man more quickly than men get bored.

Hmm...interesting. I do agree about hard to determine with so many factors. The argument I've seen is that if it were women who had the higher drives, they would be sexually restless but also still want sex with their husband at least somewhat- the theory being that the higher the drive, the less discriminating you are. I'm not sure yet myself what I think....

I think it's probably right, but I think it's just societal pressure internalised, if I were to guess. Girls at school who let one or more boys touch them: slags. Boys who touched multiple girls: heroes. Trite stuff from nans and mums about boys not buying the cow if they can get milk for free, etc. It's all bred into girls from a fairly young age in a way it isn't for boys. That has to be having an effect: girls come to see sex as something they should be doing for love, in serious relationships, etc, and there's a moral weight to not doing so. I know plenty of women who have sex very casually but they're much more apologetic about it then the men I know are.

Im not entirely sure what I think either. But I do know that the 'boys will be boys' testosterone argument is used to excuse poor male behaviour. That raises my suspicions, as generally people like to use a biological excuse for choosing poor behaviour if its available.