To think that on average women ARE less keen on casual sex? (NB. I have no objections to casual sex if ethical)

[MusettasWaltz]

This isn't a TAAT but it's partly prompted by an AIBU I saw recently where the OP was saying promiscuous men should be shamed. The OP was about my age (19) & seemed somewhat odd, but I was also surprised by a lot of the replies. Many said that women like casual sex just as much as men do, and often appear to like it less anecdotally & in studies because of slut-shaming & other factors. (Some of this might have been a reaction to the OP's stated strong disapproval of casual sex & encouragement of shaming, but most opinions do seem genuine)

I know a lot of cod psychology about women is pretty sexist and inaccurate. But my gut feeling is that on average women probably DO like casual sex less. For one thing, while some promiscuity does have some evolutionary benefit for species like birds, generally it benefits a man more evolutionarily to have casual sex more than it does a woman.

Obvs evopsych isn't the only think motivating people by a long shot, but it does have some truth I think.

Anecdotally, most of my friends are lukewarm at best about it. That could untypical ofc..

(My personal stance is that I could see myself in a casual FWB relationship but wouldn't have a ONS. This is personal, I don't think there's anything intrinsically bad about them so long as people treat each other with respect and aren't too drunk/coerced. Etc)

Curious to know the MN stance. Am I being stupidly old-fashioned? Or is this at least somewhat true?

I'd have to sit down with a pen and paper to list the casual partners I had between 19 and 21.

Those were the days!

I think that's also a case of empathy, as well. Men sadly seem to often care less about whether the man or woman they're paying to have sex with is vulnerable/coerced etc.

Plus that it's generally easier for a woman to get casual sex if she does want it, so there'd be less motive to go to a sex worker.

I read in a book on Belle Epoque Paris that during the years when it had a flourishing lesbian scene, there were women-only brothels, and courtesans (who were often bisexual) would sometimes cater to wealthy women as well as men. Presumably they must have had enough women going to keep the brothels running? (I suppose they could have taken male clients too?) Depressing to think of women being exploitative en masses like that, but probs possible

. I think that's probs an exception though.

I think the risk v reward is so different for men and women. Men and women obviously both risk STIs and unwanted pregnancy but women also might worry about rape or being physically attacked, are much more affected by pregnancy obviously and of course slut shaming/reputation. Women also statistically less likely to orgasm. So I think it’s not surprising women want casual sex less as there’s less potential benefit and way more potential downside. And all of the above is probably part of the reason why many women want an emotional connection to have sex - so they can feel safe and more likely to feel comfortable/have good communication which makes orgasm more likely.

Agreed. Imagine how successful a male Bonnie Blue would be.…. He’d be very lucky to get even one woman willing to shag for free whilst being filmed and posted online, let alone 1,000!

Since I turned 40 I’ve been having casual sex with men of various ages, after being in relationships a lot of my life.
It’s surprised me. I’m good at deciding not to open my heart and just enjoy the sex and company and fun. And it’s been the men who want to turn it into something more and them who have got feelings.
Not disproving the fact that men more than women like casual sex, but it’s not black and white. Thoughout my life I’ve found men get very attached from sex

I don't think it's a question of empathy...I think women just don't have the same urge in the same way. Because even in consensual situations we don't behave in the same way - knowing gay male friends I have had, all the issues of sex parties and saunas and chem sex. I and my female friends don't ever think 'oh I would love to visit a sex worker but I know it's immoral'.

Obviously women still have a sex drive, and can still enjoy casual sex, but I think with men it's different.

Yeah exactly...regardless of social norms and whatever, women would be grossed out by that, whereas a lot of men would think 'yeah, great'

Agreed its different an we call it 'sex drive' yet what is this? If we peel back mens behaviour what sits behind it? Some men would like us to think its biological and innate, (not 'their fault'!). But the men I know who are more self assured/less ego driven/self aware dont behave like this (in general). Patriarchy allows men to behave poorly and abuse women, this is just another way they do it. Nothing to do with sex drive really.

I am very happily single and have been for a very long time, but do enjoy the odd ONS. I do it less than I used to because of safety reasons. I can completely separate feelings from sex and just use the experience for my own ends, as it were.

Well that very much depends on the individual I had several one night' stands when single
And I usually ended up getting hurt as I fell for them.

I think women don't necessarily always want a forever marriage-and-kids relationship, but for any given level of encounter, women tend to want something a bit more connected.

e.g. FWB rather than a hookup, or if it's a hookup then it's have a glass of wine and some conversation first rather than some literal complete random behind some bushes. One FWB arrangement at a time rather than different people picked up at the club every few nights. etc.

I don't think it's a negative thing to "catch feelings" nor is it a point of pride to be able to have sex without feeling at least some fondness for the person. I think feelings-shaming is worse than slut-shaming.

I think in general you are probably right statistically but you have to control for the social influences on women. It used to be frowned upon for women to have casual sexual relationships and while thats no longer true there’s a very significant hangover from those days in terms of social mores.

Its quite hard to separate out innate approaches to sex from culturally influenced ones.

But similar behaviour (sometimes worse) happens between gay men - also patriarchy?

Imo men's on average higher sex drive & lower empathy makes it easier for them to behave this way. But it's no excuse at all, and culture should not encourage/reward it.

I don’t think women are less keen with the right person, probably the opposite, but they are probably more fussy, but that little fanny flutter can take you down the yellow brick road!

Safety has already been mentioned, but that risk can apply to long term partners as well.

There are also historical overhangs, name calling, being told that “naice” girls don’t, and of course pregnancy.

Interestingly, there has been an assumption throughout this thread that all women are heterosexual, which isn’t quite reality.

Agree with all that - I did mention lesbians in several posts (I'm bisexual myself).
People seem to have a view often (not on this thread, just generally) that just bc lesbians don't do crazy saunas etc normally it means they're basically only monogamous (obvs that's fine) or even having a dead bedroom. Ironically a rather male-centric viewpoint- if women aren't having casual sex male-style, that must mean they don't like it! I think that attitudes also applies to stuff like the survey I mentioned upthread.

Yes this is the perfect balance, sex with feelings and friendship but that’s it, the men I’ve met want that too rather than the cold hookup. Although they have spoken about doing that with other women so it might depend on who they meet.

Yes just because we aren’t having orgies in saunas or meeting in toilets must mean we are less sexual. But put us with the right person where we can feel some safety and control.. and woah. Men are just generally less risk averse

It’s a complex situation, OP, and I don’t think that there is any one single answer, not least because “women” as a group encompasses infinite possibilities of personality, age, life stage, employment & economic status, and a myriad of other factors.
Personally, yes I have enjoyed varied ONS sex at various stages of my life. However I would not even dream of it (!) now, at nearly 60, in a committed LTR and with a huge set of responsibilities.
I suspect that, as a youth, I was sometimes blithely unaware of the dangers of 1:1 ONS - tbh as a more mature woman I’m a little shocked at some of the situations!
It was part of a rebellion against the world, for sure, but there was pleasure there too!

Yes I think gay mens behaviour is also due to patriarchy. Men feeling a huge sense of entitlement to have their ' needs' met without much empathy cuts across sexual preferences. In a way that women dont have that entitlement regardless of sexuality too.

I think speaking in average terms women are built different to men. It makes sense from an evolutionary behavioural, risk/ reward and self preservation point of view.

I agree with @Thepeopleversuswork. I do think that female sex ‘drive’ is as a whole lower than male sex drive but I also think it looks different. Would I pay for someone to do something to my genitals for ten minutes - no I wouldn’t. Would I pay for someone to caress my hair or face or or massage my body for an hour - yes I would, and I frequently do*. I think that kind of sensual experience is just as sexual, but it doesn’t look like male sexuality so it isn’t included in statistics.

Also if I want that, and I sometimes have done, I can get it for free pretty easily. Whereas *if I wanted to get someone to just bathe me in sensuality for an hour, I appear to have to pay - men don’t see the point.

Argh, uncontrolled use of asterisks there, apologies.

'Caress hair/face' - is this going to the hairdresser? Or something else?

Sorry, just unsure. I don't go much & my hairdresser is the no-nonsense not face-caressing type 🤣!

I've thought about this - for me, the issue with casual sex is I may as well be masterbating - if there's no feelings involved, then why am I bothering with all the hassle that comes with another human - they might 'catch feelings', good sex isn't guaranteed, it might even be dangerous, or I might catch something or get pregnant. Much easier to do it myself at that point

Masturbation just isn’t the same as a decent ONS for me. Maybe the risk is part of the excitement.