to think we're all being manipulated

[newbluesofa]

I'm going to get flamed by reform voters here, and I think it'll come off as thinking I'm smarter than everyone but I genuinely don't, which is why I'm so confused by this.

To me, it is incredibly obvious that we are being completely manipulated by politicians and the media. They want us to blame immigrants and people who claim benefits for their failing to run the country properly. And it's worked.

I don't think we should have unregulated immigration, there are issues that need to be addressed. But there's a difference between sensibly discussing immigration from an economic point, and the nasty hate and vitriol that's everywhere now. It is what they WANT. As long as we're fighting amongst ourselves, no one is looking up at the people with the real power and money.

One example, newspapers describing immigrants as 'fighting age men'. 'Fighting' is not an age. Young men could also be fit, healthy, and able to work and contribute. They say 'fighting age' to scaremonger and promote anti immigrant rhetoric, and it works as people parrot the line.

It's always been the way that the ruling class look for ways to keep the masses infighting. Honestly I lose respect at anyone that falls for it. I don't get how it isn't so obvious to others, how can you not see you're being played?

yet the Daily mail is always in feeds on your PC or phone. People see those feeds and get the headline. The Fail is a MN favourite. The Rothmeres (no surprise) manipulate things for their benefit
He has non-domicile (non-dom) tax status and owns his media businesses through a complex structure of offshore holdings and trusts.[3]
According to the International Business Times:
The Daily Mail owner did not deny claiming tax concessions as "non-dom", though he insisted this was because his father had lived in France. Lord Rothermere acquired France as his "domicile of birth" upon his birth as his father acquired a French "domicile of choice" by becoming a tax exile in Paris.[4]

Sorry if someone has posted already but this sums it up

@RightOrLeft good points
I have a neighbour with a poster in his window "Refugees Welcome". It's a 4 bed detached house in a low crime, middle class suburb. No refugees have ever got near his house. They're housed in a hotel right on the other side of town, where the council estate and the warehouses are.
I would say, end the "hotel" accommodation, it's a focus for hostility. Where to house them? Not letting them sleep in tents like the French, but social housing like in Sweden, although the quality is poor there and overcrowding problematic. However, it's a better solution.
Definitely round the country, and fewer in the poorer areas with a high impact on services.

Yes, they have. In fact there's an updated version as well.

Except the OP didn't say that.
But the numbers are small in relation to our population and the numbers of people migrating elsewhere.
Asylum seekers are being lumped in to the figures yet they're seeking sanctuary from wars and conflicts that (in some cases)we have invested in.

I read a really sus article the other day, so Google searched the image and got four hits, all on the same extremely sus article from different websites. (Apparently someone who was on OnlyFans quit, bought an ex-council house, is now on UC and spent £1000s on her kids' school uniform. I don't believe it.)

Absolutely

Thanks @Mildorado that updated one is definitely more apt these days

Yes but she didn’t provide any solutions.
Just wanted to show what superior thinking skills she has over the rest of us plebs.

I think it’s absolutely the opposite. We (collectively and individually) are afraid to admit the scale of the problem because of social pressure to disassociate from far right racist views.

Immigration and systemic racism are two different issues, yet middle class England has conflated them, which has left the government paralysed to take a hard stance for fear of a) the hard right capitalising on it and b) losing votes from the woke left.

So they take a middle ground, which is what has got us in the situation of uncontrolled immigration in the first place.

Until the fact that it’s unsustainable becomes an acceptable narrative amongst the educated, liberal-voting general public, we won’t get anywhere.

I read down the thread specifically to see if someone had picked up on this! 🤣

totally agree. It is usually the person making such statements such as poorly educated that is poorly educated themselves as they have had no life experiences and training in being able to listen objectively to another viewpoint. Their horizons are usually very limited.

You mean, you were being manipulated but you didn't realise, but now you see it? If so I'd be so interested to hear about that and what opened your eyes to it

They've been fed into the market model (public-private partnerships) because for decades, our tax intake hasn't been enough to run them outright. We are borrowing against our children's future (paying extortinate fees to these private companies) because we are an aging population with so few young people being born that there aren't enough new taxpayers coming into the system. This is what is driving our high levels of immigration. No traditional party will stop it as the only aternative is bankruptcy or a complete collapse of the welfare state. Needless to say, Reform is gunning for collapse.

The point of my thread isn't to provide solutions to immigration issues, it's to discuss the division and hostility surrounding them. Don't sneer at me because you missed the point of my thread. This is an example of the nastiness I'm talking about.

That's actually along the lines of what I'd be thinking too. I think it's humane and would benefit all involved. Like with most of the issues that cause political friction what it boils down to is the poorer and more vulnerable of society not being valued or listened to and being expected to take on burdens.beyond their financial or social capability

We've managed to talk for 5 minutes, acknlowedge some real concerns and come up with a practical solution without being verbally aggressive to each other or any cohort of society and without labelling each other 'loonie lefties' or 'racists' If only politicians could actually do what they're paid for and do this on a larger scale eh?! We could all be getting our guitars out and singing Kum Bah Yah. I'm actually not being snarky 🤣 I really do wish it was this simple

When I say resources, I am referring to things like NHS appointments and local authority housing. And no one can legitimately say that these things aren’t under immense strain, and that supply is matching demand. And it’s not just a matter of taxing people more, we are already extremely heavily taxed and it’s just not enough, too few people living here are net contributors to the economy.

👍

We are always being manipulated, by every political party and media organisation.

It's all a distraction from the real issues of life and the uncomfortable unavoidable reality of our mortality.

One example, newspapers describing immigrants as 'fighting age men'. 'Fighting' is not an age. Young men could also be fit, healthy, and able to work and contribute. They say 'fighting age' to scaremonger and promote anti immigrant rhetoric, and it works as people parrot the line.

You have completely misunderstood what is meant by 'fighting age men'. It refers to their claims for asylum. Traditionally, most asylum seekers are (or at least should be) fleeing war. They are most commonly expected to be women, children and the elderly and vulnerable. Not young men who are fit enough to be conscripted into the army. Who is fighting for their country if all the men of army conscription age are running away to seek asylum? Men who are young and fit and healthy enough to join the armed forces are expected to stay and do what they can to protect their country and fight against the aggressors. Not be the first ones to climb on a dinghy to Kent, leaving their women and children and elderly behind in an apparently dangerous war zone.

'Fighting age' does have an age actually, where conscription in times of war is concerned.

I think it'll come off as thinking I'm smarter than everyone

Trust me, no-one is thinking that for a minute.

Yanbu

We’re being fucked every way, by bots/ruskies/bad actors and we’re being manipulated into turning on each other.

Me too, on that we agree. I think it's this sort of discourse which is getting lost on the battleground of left vs right, but can offer a palatable solution where neither group feels dismissed or ignored or belittled. The poorest in society can't be expected to carry the load alone anymore.

Interesting viewpoint @HeadDeskHeadDesk… do you have any sons? How would you feel about them being conscripted to “fight the aggressors”? That feels like a really privileged point of view where you know it could never happen to you and yours.

I don't think its this.

Its lack of curiosity. People have a disturbing lack of curiosity about what the 'other side' thinks and why they think it.

Much easier to write off the 'other side' as believing lies and not able to tell reality from fantasy, than it is to take the time to really look into what their experiences are and why they think like they do.

I've had many discussions people, including withmany friends, who are very pro-immigration and NONE of them have ever, ever looked into the reasons why some communities are raising concerns about immigration in their area. They may have decided why these communities have concerns, but they have not bothered to listen to what these communities themselves say these concerns are.

This was well described by a previous MN poster who said immigration was brilliant as she got lovely food from the local food market now from immigrants and the cost of trades people had gone down, and what a wonderful world this was. So this poster with her high disposable income to buy artisan foreign food from her local food market, had not stopped to think, not even for one second, that maybe this world was not feeling so wonderful for the tradespeople who had their income and ability to support their families seriously undercut. They probably had quite a different view of the wonderfulness of immigration than her. You cannot expect the people who are adversely affected by immigration to be enthusiastic about immigration. If middle class professionals had their salary cut by half due to immigration they would also be very anti immigration.

But that poster had never stopped to consider that.

And that's lack of curiosity.

Social housing is a very scarce resource in very high demand in this country.

People living in insecure housing and overpriced private rental are not going to feel more favourably to immigrants when they see them getting priority for the secure social housing that British citizens are themselves unable to access.