To think the social contract has completely broken down?

[KenAdams]

It seems as though everything if affected, from parking in disabled spaces when you don't need them to talking loudly in train quiet carriages to not tolerating people that are different or have different views to you or caring if they are drowned or tortured.

I'm not sure if it was COVID that ramped up the every man for himself mentality but everywhere just seems like a cesspit at the moment.

Of course it could just be the places I frequent but I travel a lot and I don't even think its a UK thing, it seems to be everywhere.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

This is so hyperbolic

Thank you

I was only joking - to him and to you!

I was trying to make the point that if you want to challenge the system you need to put in the intellectual graft…not just reject authority on a whim.

not just reject authority on a whim.

But why shouldn't they?

Nobody has ever had the chance to vote upon or consent to 'the system'. People just accept the status quo without ever thinking about it. If some people manage to break the brainwashing/conditioning and reject things, they're unlikely to care about being criticised by the brainwashed sheep, are they?

😉

You’re missing my point.

Of course people are free to reject what you call ‘the system’, but not in the casual, spontaneous, chaotic way I’ve described. Society would certainly break down if they did.

Suppose someone in an operating theatre decided they should be on a par ( pay, authority etc) with the surgeon and refused to follow the surgeon’s instructions during an operation? Or a train driver decided they were knocking off at their usual time despite their train being delayed and not having reached its destination? Etc etc.

What I’m saying is really simple and reasonable: question authority in an intellectual way - don’t just unilaterally walk out or down tools without any sense of responsibility for others. That would be inexcusable, stupid and selfish behaviour.

By an intellectual way, I mean- join a party or pressure group, write or demonstrate, make a speech. I don’t think you’re entitled to butt out of your role and responsibilities unless you can argue a case for it though.

Oh and - who do you mean by ‘the brainwashed sheep’?

I’m always wary of anyone who displays contempt for others, and this sounds arrogant and contemptuous to me.

I’m out and about everywhere for my job in all kinds of areas and most people are still good, nice, polite, well mannered, give way, kind etc. Media wants the world to believe society is falling down and people are shit but it just isn’t true. The bad eggs just stand out

@CoffeeCantata

Your argument entirely exists within the system and you demand that people engage with the system.

My point is that the system itself operates purely based upon inertia and people not questioning it. For example, what authority do the laws, police and justice system actually have? They exist and they enforce the status quo, but what if you don't accept their authority? How do you opt out?

What about the concept of taxation? How do you opt out? Why are you bound by it? When did we ever agree to having a percentage of our output confiscated by force?

When you actually stop to think about it, the system can't really be defended - but the alternative is anarchy, so what can you do? 🤷‍♀️

I fully agree with this and would add pride (but not of the current flag variety).

Broken windows. It was a policy pushed by NYC police commissioner. If you don’t deal with the broken windows, crime ramps up.

It’s a lack of manners and respect for others. My 72 year old mother was left standing on a packed train last week because the young woman in her booked seat refused to move. I live in a narrow one way street yet multiple cars drive down it daily the wrong way. People ignore no right turn turns constantly, and red lights because their time is more important than anyone else’s. I don’t break laws, or rules and I’m polite to other people. This entitlement isn’t a new thing but it’s getting more normal now.

Why not explain what she actually meant. Perhaps google it instead of the moral revulsion.

You are making the exact same point I have made a number of times on MN threads recently. So yes I agree with you :)

And I do think covid had something to do with it, albeit I’m sure that there was an undercurrent that was always there beneath the surface. It effectively emboldened people to treat rules as optional if they felt with it.

That coupled with a couple of decades of permissive parenting, where again rules and boundaries were optional and nothing is the fault of the child, it’s always somebody else who caused it.

The only way to deal with it is for people to face consequences for their actions.

Soo many entitled twats around now , many more than a few years ago

And you are exactly the type of selfish, uneducated, entitled idiot that causes the problem.

You do get a vote. There’s an election every 5 years. The way democracy works in the UK is we don’t have millions of votes on every little law that passes. Nor could we possibly expect to. Nor does any other country. Indeed in many country you don’t get meaningful votes at all.

And the last time we put an extremely complicated issue to a referendum (far too complicated for an average person, let alone somebody of your limited intelligence) it didn’t end very well.

We vote for a party and their manifesto and then they implement it (or attempt to). And then 5 years later they get marked on how they did.

There's another thread entitled 'Should I tell Tesco that I've basically stolen £300 from them?'. Someone in the poster's family took delivery of a £300 order that she'd cancelled - so she had it all for free. I was absolutely stunned by the number of comments telling her to keep the delivery as well as the refund!

Fair enough, then you should take care to put your question into context.

And you are exactly the type of selfish, uneducated, entitled idiot that causes the problem.

well that was nice

It all started slow, the loud speaker, no one saying anything so the next person does it.
People smoking in public areas close to others.
I would always say something but I was always a lone voice.

We've been our own undoing. By not saying anything, we've allowed the behaviours to continue.

Transport for London are now trying to reverse the behaviours, but why not when it started happening?

So if you are parented permissively are you to blame for your selfish actions?

Ethically what should society do?

The legal age in England (and Wales) of criminal responsibility is 10. Is that too young? Too old?

Because of “Don’t judge. Don’t shame. Be kind. You don’t know someone’s personal issues. Maybe they have SEN/mental health issues/having a bad day.” It’s all you see on here if anyone mentions someone doing something bad/rude/antisocial etc.

Why is being a bit patient and kind just in case, such a bad thing?

So then we may as well just let people do what they want then no? Because you can never tell what anyone is going through so you can never pull up anyone on their behaviour ever. So the result is everyone just does want they want because they can get away with it.

To the pp saying that things were worse in the 70’s and 80’s, I disagree on the whole. Most people knew how to behave with respect for others in public. People would call out others misbehaving in public, including school kids. It felt like there was more of a collective responsibility to do the right thing. I might be wrong and happy to be told so but compared to now, it was nothing like the general disregard of others and the individualism of today.
Lives were certainly worse in many other ways of course!

Yes I think things were better