Why bother being nice/doing the ‘right’ thing?!

[Blinkingbother]

I’m late 40s. Brought up to be kind, courteous, decent, fair….. I don’t think this has done me any favours and now I feel I’ve f-d my children over by teaching them the same values.I know, I KNOW(!), if we all lose our values then what the hell’s left but I’m starting to think I’ve massively disadvantaged my kids by teaching them to be decent human beings. Someone tell me I’m wrong and what possible benefit I’ve given my kids by educating them to be ‘valued members of society’….

How do you feel you have fucked them over? What disadvantages have they faced by being decent human beings?

Research suggests that people with you and your children's approach to life tend to be happier. So there's that?

I know it's hard to believe it sometimes. X

Keep on doing the right thing. The right thing is never the wrong thing 👍

I feel exactly the same.

I feel similar. It cracks me up that everyone is parroting these 'be kind', and 'be brave' tropes at children, when in actual fact, how many adults are kind, and how many are brave?? So few people are kind, everyone is looking after their self interest, even more markedly in the workplace and when they have children, who will always come ahead of anyone else... and as for bravery... in any workplace I have been in, I am always stunned by the level of sycophancy, hypocrisy and gutlessness, people trying to second guess what the boss thinks to make sure they show they think the same, instead of having their own thoughts and opinions.....

They are always making themselves available to be helpful /(used); they defend others who will never step back up in return; they give their all to an activity and know they will be passed over for the child of someone ‘more important’. I should’ve just told them to do & take what they want and tell them to advise anyone else to shove it🤷🏼‍♀️

If you had just said ‘kind and courteous’ I might have agreed with you - if you’ve just raised them to be compliant and passive then they may be disadvantaged in the big bad world…

But adding in ‘decent and fair’ implies to me they have also been taught a sense of social justice and hopefully with that the courage to speak up for themselves and others.

I think there will always be some arseholes who ‘win’ at life (at least in the short term) but it is not a requirement and there are certainly plenty of ‘good’ people who do well for themselves.

I would say you steered them right in that sense. If I could have a do over of my childhood learning I would have wished for better modelling of healthy relationships/boundary setting and some form of emotional resilience training (if there is such a thing)

you can still be kind, thoughtful, courteous and have boundaries.
well done on the first step, next work on the second part. you can do it individually or as a family team

It sounds like they are still quite young? It's for you to help then get the balance right between developing boundaries and ensuring their own needs are met without being a walked over and taken advantage of. It's not one or the other.

I read of a man who stood to speak
At the funeral of a friend
He referred to the dates on the tombstone
From the beginning…to the end
He noted that first came the date of birth
And spoke the following date with tears,
But he said what mattered most of all
Was the dash between those years
For that dash represents all the time
That they spent alive on earth.
And now only those who loved them
Know what that little line is worth
For it matters not, how much we own,
The cars…the house…the cash.
What matters is how we live and love
And how we spend our dash.
So, think about this long and hard.
Are there things you’d like to change?
For you never know how much time is left
That can still be rearranged.
If we could just slow down enough
To consider what’s true and real
And always try to understand
The way other people feel.
And be less quick to anger
And show appreciation more
And love the people in our lives
Like we’ve never loved before.
If we treat each other with respect
And more often wear a smile,
Remembering this special dash
Might only last a little while
So, when your eulogy is being read
With your life’s actions to rehash…
Would you be proud of the things they say
About how you spent YOUR dash?
By Linda Ellis,

Do you not realize that there is a middle ground between being a doormat and a mean, selfish arsehole? They should be assertive rather than passive, but they don't have to be aggressive and ruthless in order to stand up for themselves.
My motto is do no harm but take no shit. I would advise your kids to get assertiveness training.

There's a big difference between being kind and being a doormat.

We don't choose to be kind in order to get some sort of reward. That completely negates the act of being kind!

I'm assuming the reason you don't kill other people isn't because you're scared of prison? It's because you know inherently that it's wrong.

What an odd and very depressing OP!

I know 💯 what you are saying op. My dh and I had the same conversation.
Being a decent person only works when a social contract is being upheld by a majority, otherwise you get gamed by others and short changed in the game of life.

We noticed this as an issue with our own friends (millennials) and decided to try to encourage "reciprocal altruism" vs universally decent behaviour as it leaves them less open to "abuse". Our kids are smaller though so only really starting now.

Maybe start framing it that way to your kids?

Being bad bites you in the arse. My few forays that way have always ended up almost ruining my life. Not worth it… being good will always feel better for the soul and have better effects in the long run

Kindness and tolerance are the first rules in my house but they are not absolute. Equally important are assertiveness, boundaries, and knowing when something is unfair or when someone is out of order.

And a lot of things are more nuanced than something being the right thing or the wrong thing to do.

I disagree OP. My kids are kind and fair etc, and I'm so pleased that they all have friends who are similarly nice kids. How old are yours OP? Mine are late teens, it can take a while to find their tribe.

Everybody does teach their kids kindness and tolerance ime so that they can get along with their peers.

It’s when the kindness and tolerance moves to doormat territory when things can go wrong because there are people who will spot that and take advantage. For example it’s ok to tell off someone for cutting the line for the slide or say no to playing a game that you don’t fancy.

You can be decent and have boundaries too. I'd probably go as far as to say you can't be decent if you don't have boundaries because if you have none yourself you cannot recognise and respect other people's boundaries.

I know exactly what you mean and have thought the same for a while now. Why am I bothering trying to be a good person when it seems most other people aren't now? Being a good person gets you nowhere, the rude arrogant and selfish people now get everything their own way with no consequences.

Just as a small example the driver that speeds around weaving in and out of cars driving recklessly jumping red lights gets where they're going quicker and is very rarely punished. Why don't we all just drive like that? Because we know it's dangerous. But they just don't care and they get where they're going quicker. And if you dare to question their driving you're just told to fuck off. I hate it.

Your making it to black and white you can be a good decent person with the strength to stand up for yourself and have boundaries.

Most people are good people

I think these are all good values.

I also think values such as ambition, hard work, integrity and discernment are important too. Probably integrity first followed by ambition and working hard (and smart).

I disagree that they are unpunished, their (natural) punishment is living all the time with an absolute arsehole, and knowing that people see them as an arsehole.

Kind and courteous isn’t the same as passive and compliant. I wish people would understand the actual meaning of words!

You get a lot of this on MN. If anyone suggests someone should be polite or considerate, or have some humility, for example, they get told that women(or anyone really) shouldn’t be raised to be submissive or people-pleasers.

Grr! These qualities are not the same as people-pleasing, feebleness, being cowardly or craven or a pushover . They’re actually strong, confident personality traits.

Rant over. OP I think your children will reap rewards from their upbringing in the future - but it may be in the longterm. Mine did. I was always really happy that teachers and other parents would comment genuinely about their behaviour and personalities. They are lovely, kind, considerate and mature but not pushovers by any means!