Why bother being nice/doing the ‘right’ thing?!

[Blinkingbother]

I’m late 40s. Brought up to be kind, courteous, decent, fair….. I don’t think this has done me any favours and now I feel I’ve f-d my children over by teaching them the same values.I know, I KNOW(!), if we all lose our values then what the hell’s left but I’m starting to think I’ve massively disadvantaged my kids by teaching them to be decent human beings. Someone tell me I’m wrong and what possible benefit I’ve given my kids by educating them to be ‘valued members of society’….

I think I was mid twenties when I had the same realisation, other people look out for themselves first, so I started doing the same thing, it doesn’t mean I can’t still be kind and helpful when it suits me, but I also take what I want first or push myself forward for things whereas I might not have before.

That sounds like people pleased/martying. Stick up for people because you want to, not to get them to stick up for you.

you can be kind, courteous and decent without being a pushover and putting yourself last and then being resentful.

One example I taught my children:

When a teacher or other leader asks for volunteers, volunteer early and take some kind of control over your destiny. That way you are showing willing and public-spiritedness but also appearing strong and self-motivated. If you skulk at the back, you’ll get the crappest job and also look like a shirker.

That’s how you combine doing the right thing with not being exploited or pushed around. Take the initiative - don’t be the person who has to be forced or push pied.

Pushed….not push pied! Ruddy autocorrect….

I teach mine to be fair, decent and hard working, and also to be assertive and to have boundaries.

Exactly. If they’re ’making themselves available to be used’, you’ve taught them to be passive people-pleasers, OP. It’s perfectly possible to be an assertive person and also behave with fairness, justice and courtesy.

I get you op. If your default is kind and supportive, even with boundaries of steel you get so many people constantly bashing against them. Whereas if your default is unhelpful arsehole people leave you alone.

Being kind means I’m more well liked but it doesn’t mean people will stick their neck out for me if push comes to shove because so many people are fundamentally selfish and self serving. People get one chance with me these days and if they try and fuck me over or throw me under the bus then that’s it, no more than the bare minimum I have to do to remain professional/ courteous from me. It’s their loss as I’m a great friend and colleague to people who deserve that from me.

There’s a saying about money that you should never lend more than you’re willing to lose and I think it’s the same for your time/ energy/ emotional support etc - how much is this person/ situation worth to you?

I brought my dd up to be kind, courteous, decent and fair. We had lots of conversations about taking the high road, rising above stuff, doing the right thing etc. Like you, I sometimes worried that I might be teaching her to be a people pleaser, a bit like myself.

I didn't need to worry. As a young adult, I couldn't be any more proud of her than I am. She's thoughtful, kind, compassionate and socially responsible. She does a lot to help others, both strangers and friends. She thinks deeply about how her choices and her actions will impact on other people. She tries to do the right thing.

But she is no pushover at all. She knows that she is a decent person so she has good self esteem. She won't take shit from anyone because she knows that she doesn't dish it out. She stands up for what is right. And she knows how to say no.

You haven't disadvantaged your dc by teaching them to be good people. We need them.

Don’t lower your standards of behaviour just because those around you may have. You can keep integrity and all those other values you mentioned without being a pushover.
And you won’t have disadvantaged your children by bringing them up well either, especially if they also have the confidence to stand up for themselves and are firm but fair. I think people with the good values you mention attract other people with similar values, and you are right that society as a whole would suffer if we abandoned them.

I agree with this. You can do little things which brightens yours and another person's day like saying hello, letting another car in when in a queue of traffic, putting your hand up to other drivers to say thank you, holding a door open for someone etc. These things don't mean you're a pushover.

There's a big difference between being kind, decent, courteous and fair and being a total doormat and a pushover. Maybe that's what you could try to instil in your kids - or at least have a conversation about it and what those values mean to you. And maybe put the emphasis on the 'fair' part. If your kids are always 'making themselves available to be used', you haven't taught them to be decent and fair, you've taught them to be martyrs.

they defend others who will never step back up in return

I think the reason to defend someone is because you feel it's necessary, not because you expect something in return. If I defend someone, it's because they need defending and maybe don't have the strength / position / privilege / status / whatever to defend themselves. But I rarely need anyone to defend me because in most situations I can and do defend myself.

I think perhaps interactions and behaviours are just a bit more nuanced and less black and white than you're suggesting, so maybe conversations and debates with your kids about that would open up some interesting lines of discussion and help them navigate this stuff a bit more, if you're concerned?

This is being a People Pleaser/Meddler though Op.
Always being helpful and defending others?
Why?
Did anyone ask for their help?

How is being helpful and defending others’being a people pleaser’?

Can you explain?

I would associate those behaviours with a strong and confident personality.

Do they want to be helped and defended?

100%

I am kind, courteous, friendly, helpful, sympathetic.

But if you’re an arsehole - don’t mess with me because I can be a horrible assertive cow too when necessary. If I see awful behaviour I woo definitely have a go.

I just don’t get this binary “being nice and kind means you’re a doormat “ mantra at all.

When I saw an elderly gentleman who was minding his own business being verbally attacked by a POS with 3 off the lead dogs I waded in. I didn’t directly take on the oik - I asked for clarification about some made-up rule he was claiming the old chap had broken ( there was no such rule). I acted disingenuously but made him explain his problem, which of course he couldn’t don- he was just a nasty bully. But I made him look the prat he was and he knew it and buggered off fast.

There are lots of ways to piss off horrible people - you don’t need to be horrible yourself. The old gent was left in peace - though he was somewhat shaken.

Being decent and kind does not mean being a pushover.

It is possible to steer a middle path.

Read the context

They feel mugged off when people are not grateful and used because people don't reciprocate
Usually a sign of overstepping and people pleasing/ poor boundaries -wondering why everyone is not super grateful that you have done this.

I want to a fancy restaurant witb DC2 today. We chatted a lot with the maitre d' telling them how nice the food was, how we would come again and recommend it to others etc etc...... lo and behold a free dessert appears!

Being nice can really work magic sometimes!

But who are ‘they’ in this context?

Who feels mugged off? How do you know what ‘they’ feel? Are they one organism?

i don’t understand your point.

YABU

Have a read around 'intrinsic rewards'.
It is good to know you did something because it is the right thing to do, not so that someone does the same for you, or thanks you in a way that lives up to your expectations.

The important bit about teaching them to be kind, decent human beings which will set them up to be valued and not walked all over is this. You also need to teach them about their worth, how to deal with situations where they are not treated well, how to be assertive and how to hold personal boundaries.

It's in the Op!
Second message-her DC
RTFT

There’s the old saying ‘virtue is its own reward’. It’s part of your identity and self-image that you have the courage and integrity to do what you think is right in any situation. Whether you ‘win’ or not is beside the point.

If I challenge someone who’s a nasty bully and they shout me down I’d still be glad I made that effort and didn’t walk on by.

OMG this is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read on here. I genuinely had no idea that so many people were only kind because they thought they'd get some kind of reward for being so. I honestly feel a bit sick. I've got really good boundaries but I'm a good person. I am not this way because it makes my own life better but because it makes the world better. It's just about common humanity. Are all the people I see being good people in my life actually secretly only doing it for selfish reasons!? Please can some more just genuinely good people come and show me that's not the case!?