To think feminism has made dating harder, not easier, for women?

[BluntTaupeSea]

On paper feminism should mean better relationships but AIBU to think it’s actually made dating more confusing, with higher expectations and constant power games?

Surely having higher expectations is a good thing? Women are now in a position where they don't have to put up with crap men. If men decide to throw a tantrum instead of becoming better people, that's their problem.

It just means women won’t tolerate mediocre men.

If by ‘harder’, you mean more women are now less likely to tolerate inequitable relationships and thus their dating pool is smaller/they are more likely to leave poor relationships, then yes.

And that’s a good thing.

High expectations are a good thing.

Is there a problem with having a higher bar?

It might be harder to find a good relationship, but surely then the onus is on men to step up and not be so shit?

I think that's more a problem with the specific men rather than with feminism.

Higher expectations are a good thing, no argument there. I just meant it feels like dating dynamics have become more tangled too. Instead of clarity, there’s often a lot of second-guessing, defensiveness and push-pull about roles. That’s the part I was questioning.

Feminism isn’t a person. It's the name given to a set of fairly diverse and not always cohesive or consistent set of ideas, developed by multiple different thinkers in multiple different countries over quite a long period of time.

If your dating life is bad I think you need to look at yourself and the people you are dating. You have agency as an individual. Feminism doesn’t.

You only have to have a look through the hundreds of threads on here to see that the bar is still firmly on the floor.

I just wonder if the process of dating has become trickier in the meantime. Instead of it just being about men stepping up, there also seems to be a lot more tension and overthinking between both sides, which can make the whole thing harder than it should.

Instead of clarity, there’s often a lot of second-guessing, defensiveness and push-pull about roles. That’s the part I was questioning.

That’s not about feminism, that’s down to poor communication skills.

What is harder?

That a woman is no longer financially dependent on her male family members and is allowed work outside the home, have bank accounts can buy property and be recognised as a legal person?

That she can pick her partner and not be forced to marry for financial reasons while loosing her legal person status or not worry that he can kick her out of her home?

That she is looking for a partner who sees her as an equal and who wants to grow old with her and support her ambitions in both her work and home life?

Romantic relationships have always been complicated. Said complications are responsible for the bulk of thousands of years worth of art, literature and poetry.

So, YABU. And if you’re repeatedly finding yourself in relationship situations with a lot of second-guessing, defensiveness and push-pull about roles, you need to review how you’re picking these men.

The clarity pre-feminism was that men were fully human in a way that women weren’t, and that they had a right to legal and financial control of women, and that there was no such thing as marital rape.

Is that the kind of clarity you want?

What do you mean by power games?

Higher expectations are good.

No, feminism is not the problem.

I think the OP is talking about dating specifically, and while no one wants to be harassed is does seem a shame that men and women don’t ever seem to get chatting in a bar, for example - I think that that’s now quite frowned upon.

Of course those gains are massive and I wouldn’t want to roll any of that back. I just meant that on the day to day dating level, it feels like things can get more fraught - more rules, expectations and second-guessing. The big picture progress is essential but it hasn’t always translated into dating feeling simpler.

Why should it not be hard?

If its an physical FWB there is no need to vastly invested.

If it is about picking a life partner the ability to communicate and the wish to be actively engaged in an ongoing dialogue shows each of the couple want to create a long term bond and make their relationship work and benefit the other person.

It’s freshers week in lots of places. Head to your nearest student Union - there are plenty of young men and women meeting and chatting each other up in bars. 😆

Not at all, I wouldn’t want to go back to those dynamics. By clarity I meant the simplicity of expectations in dating, even if they were unfair. Now there’s more equality (which is better) but also more confusion about roles and that’s what I was trying to get at.

Can you give an example regarding “confusion about roles”?

It has made it much easier. At one point practically the only option was to get married have kids, and you were practically trapped if he was cruel or violent. You couldn't get a mortgage or something on HP on your own. Now you can be financially independent and decide who exactly you want in your life.

I mean the defensiveness and point-scoring that can creep into dating now… who should pay, who’s ‘more invested’, who’s compromising more. I wasn’t saying feminism is the problem, just that it’s shifted the dynamics and sometimes that makes dating feel trickier.

“Men stepping up”

Do you really just mean that modern dating means you’re expecting to pay your way instead of the man paying for all the dates?

I mean no disrespect because I’ve been a proud second wave feminist my entire adult life but…what about the mediocre women? If we’re grading an entire sex then surely we should be applying the same standards to ourselves?