To think feminism has made dating harder, not easier, for women?

[BluntTaupeSea]

On paper feminism should mean better relationships but AIBU to think it’s actually made dating more confusing, with higher expectations and constant power games?

I think there's only confusion when you have entitled men who haven't moved with the times.

Most women expect someone who puts equal effort to them into their home life, whether is having a job, doing the housework and running the family. Women may have once run the home whilst men financially supported the house- now women are putting in the hours on financial support they need men to step up at home. It's not rocket science. Many men seem to struggle with this idea-but I don't see feminism as the problem here.

I agree that dating has become more complicated, but I don't think it's got anything to do with feminism.

I think it's the awful US import of exclusivity. I'm not even that old. 80s /90s child i and when I started dating in the early 00s it went without saying that if you d been on a date with somebody and started seeing them.That was it, you didn't see anyone else.

Now, is this awful import of multidating. And i've seen advice on some dating threads on this website that you should never pursue your exclusive with someone until you have the chat. Some women have had the attitude that it's absolutely fine for men to see other women and for women to see other men. This is when a relationship as 3 months old. So hardly new.

For me, dating was as confusing as hell, because I didn't know who was seeing who if they were seeing somebody else where I actually stood. It's rare now to get a man that's just looking for one woman.And looking to stop when they find somebody they actually like and see how it goes. Most of the time they keep looking for something else.And it's a kind of sweet short mentality.

In a way I agree with you op, but I don’t see it as a bad thing. Women are realising that they are better off staying single rather than being in a shitty relationship with someone who disrespects them. I feel much happier single rather than tolerating a man that doesn’t tick all my boxes. I can’t think of many positives of being in a relationship anymore, other than company (which I can get from friends) and intimacy …….which you can kind of get without being in a relationship.

Unless find someone who has similar interests than me, similar life style and similar values then I am perfectly happy staying single.

I don’t think anyone did American style “dating” in the U.K. before feminism, did they? Wasn’t even a term used in the 90s when I grew up — only became generally used here after Sex and the City got very popular. Used to be called “going out” but there wasn’t much of the American “dating” ritual involved - less corsages for the room, and more like having a pint and sharing some crisps at the pub and then bingo you were boyfriend and girlfriend.

Not sure anyone did much “dating” before feminists got women the vote, to be honest. Unless your idea of uncomplicated “dating” is going for a ride in the pony-trap with the local farmer’s son after church, or doing a round of “Mr Fortune’s Maggot” with a country squire at the Assembly Rooms in Bath.

I just meant that sometimes even early-stage dating feels weighed down by tension and second-guessing, rather than flowing naturally.

You seem to think we don’t understand what you’re saying. We do. The majority of us just disagree with you.

You’ve never dated pre-feminism, though? Why do you assume it was more straightforward or easier? I don’t really see what feminism has to do with ‘who’s more invested’? I’m sure there have always been human relationships where one person was more invested than the other.

If you read Sylvia Plath, her dating life doesn’t sound particularly easy or straightforward. I think pre-feminism women had the complications of trying to navigate how to square their intelligence and career ambitions with social expectations and the expectations of the men they were dating. I think there was a lot of psychological conflict around that and it caused some women a lot of confusion and anguish. I don’t think things were easy or straightforward at all. I don’t think she felt particularly clear about what her role was.

Yes, but I don't think that's because of feminism.I think it's because the dating game has changed.

Now, people think it's acceptable to date loads of other people.Until you've had the exclusivity chat. That's a horrid u s import.

Things like who’s ’meant’ to initiate, pay or define where it’s going. On paper we say it’s equal now but in practice people often seem unsure, which can create mixed signals.

LOLNO

Strange how we havent imported the way they deal with child maintenance debts isnt it.

I’ve read too many novels of the pre feminist era to think this is anything but bunk, sorry.

I just don’t think we have any remaining concept of how restrictive the social conventions on women used to be, and thank goodness for that. Yes we have some new restrictions we put on ourselves but nobody really cares.

I wasn’t saying dating was easy before, just that the pressures feel different now. Maybe every era has its own set of complications.

But as I said above, this didn’t exist in the UK until recently - it was an American thing. There weren’t any paying for dinner rituals. People met at a pub or a club or at uni or a party or whatever, and then blundered their way through some awkwardness until it was wordlessly mutually agreed that they were “going out”. “Dating” in the American sense didn’t really exist. That’s why US series like SATC were so exotic - it was a whole set of rituals that just didn’t happen here. All the discussions around who should pay and are we exclusive and so on are actually on that show. They literally discuss them as issues in the show as part of the comedy!

That’s surely down to personal lack of confidence though? All those things are quite simply dealt with through open conversations.

Good relationships are built on honesty and ongoing communication.

No relationship that can’t manage to cheerfully discuss who is paying is going anywhere.

I'm not sure if prefer a world where we avoid point scoring by accepting women are sub-human and shouldn't have rights.

Also, I think you're dating the wrong people.

OP, serious question - what are you getting out of these threads? This one and a couple of others today have been slightly less goady and a bit more open to an actual debate, but are you suddenly asking every question you've ever thought of? or is this some other issue? It's so strange.

But in the interests of at least treating all threads like they're genuine, dating might be less "complicated" in the "old days", but that doesn't mean that it was better. And certainly, not that relationships were better. RThere were alwasys confusions and lack of clarity and I can only imagine you're too young to have actually experienced any of this. I cetainly remember the never ending trauma of did he did he not like me, waiting for calls, over aonsing about every interaction. Misreading signals etc etc etc.

Good communication should solve it. I just think in practice, lots of people don’t communicate clearly about these things, which is why it ends up feeling messy.

I can only speak for this thread. I asked a question and people are debating it, which was the point.

To answer your question, though — I always think of an anecdote of my mum’s from the seventies. She was “going out” at the time with a very abusive man who liked to shove her around as well as be verbally abusive. He was once tanked up on beer and shoving and shouting at her in the street when they were walking home from a pub. A police car pulled up alongside them. The copper wound the window down and said: “Now what’s all this?”

Bloke said all righteous, “This is my girlfriend!” “Oh sorry to bother you, sir, that’s all right!” grovelled Plod, and wound up the window and zoomed off.

Well exactly? The problem is crap communication, not feminism.

I can't honestly say I've felt the confusion you describe though.

OK but that’s not anything to do with feminism. That’s just adults being incompetent.

To be blunt: if your relationships feel messy, open your mouth and sort them out.

Otherwise you are just wasting your own time and generating entirely unnecessary angst for yourself.

The big picture progress is essential but it hasn't always translated into dating feeling simpler

I really don't think that making dating simpler is one of the aims of feminism.

I do think dating and finding a relationship these days have become harder and more complicated. Whether feminism is the sole culprit for this, I am not sure. I would imagine it has contributed somewhat in that women do expect more from their partners (regarding heterosexual relationships). And why not, I guess? Usually, both partners have to work full-time to raise families, so gender roles have changed drastically. It’s no longer expected that women are just homemakers. I think, in some ways, we haven’t quite adapted to the change in gender roles and expectations, and this has become detrimental to authentic connection. That’s my opinion.

I have male friends who are finding the dating scene hard. I do think some women have unrealistic expectations of men and relationships in general. This puts unnecessary and unhelpful pressure on potential partners. I think this puts off men and this can be interpreted negatively by women as well, I.e. “all men are useless,” “men these days,” “dating apps are full of pond scum” etc. For me, what’s striking, is expectations. We live in such hard times generally, a relationship ought not be so pressurised. I feel it’s killed real connection. It’s like people (both men and women) are going into dating and relationships with a checklist of green and red flags. That’s not how true, genuine human connection works I feel. It’s like the antithesis of love.

I think we are living in a unique time, relationships wise, where gender roles, expectations have completely changed, and we haven’t quite caught up or understood this as a species.

Throw in dating apps, and social media, and we’ve got a bit of a shitstorm.

All the hallmarks of the regular 'Let's Have a Heated Debate" poster(s). Controversial opinion first post then settling back to moderate the debate.