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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Keir Starmer is looking more ridiculous by the day

281 replies

Viviennemary · 15/09/2025 17:37

I've just seen an interview with Keir Starmer talking in riddles. If he knew then what he knew now then this mess wouldn't have happened. Three hour debate about it tomorrow in Parliament. Surely his time is up. But if a lefty takes over it might be worse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
bombastix · 17/09/2025 21:09

The Conservatives had their own go at getting a deal with the US with Trump that failed before Biden. And what does it say about various Conservative PMs that they failed internationally with Biden, the EU, India? I’m critical of Starmer and his domestic policy but internationally he is far better than his predecessors who landed very little of quality even though they had been the enthusiastic backers of Brexit and the opportunities it was said to provide the UK. Who has actually delivered these deals over the line?

TeenagersAngst · 18/09/2025 06:40

Starmer is an internationalist and it’s clear he much prefers foreign policy to domestic. Anyone remember his famous ‘Davos’ answer when being asked which was his favourite- Westminster or Davos?

StandFirm · 18/09/2025 07:07

Viviennemary · 15/09/2025 18:15

He was very good at his job apparently. Well I suppose being a duplicitous liar wouldn't be on his CV. You couldn't make it up. All about money and cosying up to rich folk.

I suppose you won't vote Reform either because cosying up to rich folk is NF's business model.

Thegreyhound · 18/09/2025 07:08

EmpressoftheMundane · 17/09/2025 07:59

Eh? The climate emergency/crisis has been the drumbeat of the last 20 years. We have made a lot of stupid, emotional moves be cause of it too.

You have got to be kidding me.
You simply cannot look at the reality and say that. It’s nonsense.

twistyizzy · 18/09/2025 07:32

bombastix · 17/09/2025 19:32

I do think there is something actually beyond the usual bullshit of the special relationship that usually gets wheeled out. Starmer has been able to use that where his predecessors haven’t, even where frankly Trump and him have little in common politically. It is certainly unusual, but it’s a thing that other countries would be grateful for.

Look at the Swiss or India who have engaged Trump and his ire. The UK has avoided that. I think it will do more with the US, and no, it’s not Nigel Farage who gets credit for that because no Conservative PM delivered post Brexit even a fraction of what Starmer has got from the US. It may not suit the idea that Starmer is an idiot, but internationally he is astute. I would expect more good news to come.

Well Nick Clegg isn't overwhelmed with the deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/17/nick-clegg-multibillion-dollar-transatlantic-tech-agreement-sloppy-seconds-from-silicon-valley

Nick Clegg: US-UK tech deal is ‘sloppy seconds from Silicon Valley’

Meta’s former president of global affairs says agreement will leave UK more reliant on US tech firms

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/17/nick-clegg-multibillion-dollar-transatlantic-tech-agreement-sloppy-seconds-from-silicon-valley

StandFirm · 18/09/2025 07:38

I don't think it's particularly good news. It's going to pull us away even further from our neighbours without delivering any substantial advantages.

EmpressoftheMundane · 18/09/2025 07:39

Thegreyhound · 18/09/2025 07:08

You have got to be kidding me.
You simply cannot look at the reality and say that. It’s nonsense.

Nope. Not kidding. I mean it.

Goldenbear · 18/09/2025 07:51

TeenagersAngst · 18/09/2025 06:40

Starmer is an internationalist and it’s clear he much prefers foreign policy to domestic. Anyone remember his famous ‘Davos’ answer when being asked which was his favourite- Westminster or Davos?

Stop with the binary choices, operating in this world is not as simple as that, it doesn't come down to posts on a chat forum!

twistyizzy · 18/09/2025 08:48

bombastix · 17/09/2025 16:42

I think I saw 10 billion direct investment this morning from US companies! Good news for us and facilitated by the relationship.

you don’t have to see blues in the loo, you know

I don't but I also don't go jumping around in raptures. There are plenty of experienced and knowledgeable commentators saying there are drawbacks to the deal (see Clegg in the Guardian plus TWIM podcast).
You would do the same scrutiny if Tories were announcing such a deal.
Its nothing to do with finding random issues with everything, it's about balancing the surface announcement from Starmer/Labour with analysis from other sources.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/have-we-just-surrendered-our-economic-independence/id1703785141?i=1000727263467

TeenagersAngst · 18/09/2025 09:24

Goldenbear · 18/09/2025 07:51

Stop with the binary choices, operating in this world is not as simple as that, it doesn't come down to posts on a chat forum!

I didn’t ask him the question and I sure as hell didn’t answer it.

bombastix · 18/09/2025 10:27

Clegg makes a fair point. But the elephant in the room is the UK does not have equivalent technology and nor does Europe. That is our failure over decades. We and the EU nations have been less innovative that the US. Their economy is still growing. Ours is stagnant. I’m not saying tech industry is the reason, but it is a symptom.

It is all very well saying that we are being separated from our near neighbours. But our near neighbours manage these relationships via the EU. And their priorities are rather less impressive, such as securing fishing rights, sanitation requirements for sausages over borders and then youth mobility. This is really really small beer relatively speaking and it is not going to help with the UK’s investment and infrastructure needs.

Agree Starmer is an internationalist.

RoseAndGeranium · 19/09/2025 01:08

bombastix · 18/09/2025 10:27

Clegg makes a fair point. But the elephant in the room is the UK does not have equivalent technology and nor does Europe. That is our failure over decades. We and the EU nations have been less innovative that the US. Their economy is still growing. Ours is stagnant. I’m not saying tech industry is the reason, but it is a symptom.

It is all very well saying that we are being separated from our near neighbours. But our near neighbours manage these relationships via the EU. And their priorities are rather less impressive, such as securing fishing rights, sanitation requirements for sausages over borders and then youth mobility. This is really really small beer relatively speaking and it is not going to help with the UK’s investment and infrastructure needs.

Agree Starmer is an internationalist.

You may sneer at fishing rights and food safety standards, but food security is a significant long term issue with the potential to be sn existential problem in the future. The US knows that, so does the Eu: that’s why their food production industries are usually off the table when foreign trade carve ups are underway. Our stupid government serves them up as the main course. Meanwhile at home farmers are told ‘to do more with less’, left unsupported against predatory monopolistic supermarkets with gigantic profits, and threatened with land purchase orders at below market rates by councils. As a result, farms are closing at record rates. Maybe you take the view that it doesn’t matter because farming is very small beer in GDP terms. But if farmland is built on, that’s it. It’s not like most other industries that can safely be off-shored, or swiftly revived at need. You tear out an orchard and it would take a decade or more to replace it. You stick a housing estate on a field and it will never be productive again. 60% of our food is domestically produced, and falling. It’s not clever

twistyizzy · 19/09/2025 07:20

RoseAndGeranium · 19/09/2025 01:08

You may sneer at fishing rights and food safety standards, but food security is a significant long term issue with the potential to be sn existential problem in the future. The US knows that, so does the Eu: that’s why their food production industries are usually off the table when foreign trade carve ups are underway. Our stupid government serves them up as the main course. Meanwhile at home farmers are told ‘to do more with less’, left unsupported against predatory monopolistic supermarkets with gigantic profits, and threatened with land purchase orders at below market rates by councils. As a result, farms are closing at record rates. Maybe you take the view that it doesn’t matter because farming is very small beer in GDP terms. But if farmland is built on, that’s it. It’s not like most other industries that can safely be off-shored, or swiftly revived at need. You tear out an orchard and it would take a decade or more to replace it. You stick a housing estate on a field and it will never be productive again. 60% of our food is domestically produced, and falling. It’s not clever

Labour and their supprters tend to be urban minded and quite frankly don't care about farming/fishing or food security. They would quite happily see all farmland concreted over as housing or solar panels.

RoseAndGeranium · 19/09/2025 07:41

twistyizzy · 19/09/2025 07:20

Labour and their supprters tend to be urban minded and quite frankly don't care about farming/fishing or food security. They would quite happily see all farmland concreted over as housing or solar panels.

Yes, sadly I think this is true. They think it is sophisticated to sneer at the yokels and gammons who care about maintaining the distinctive traditions, practices, and appearance of the British countryside.They insist that by some complicated mathematics involving carbon savings that it would be better to rewild or solar panel over our farms than to grow food on them. They are perfectly prepared to relinquish any real control over the ethics, quality, and safety of our food production and expose the nation to substantial price shocks on basic foodstuffs at best, and food shortage or even famine at worst if shipping is blockaded during future conflicts or if climate change and/or population growth prompt current exporters reduce exports in response to poorer harvests or shortage.

EasternStandard · 19/09/2025 07:56

RoseAndGeranium · 19/09/2025 01:08

You may sneer at fishing rights and food safety standards, but food security is a significant long term issue with the potential to be sn existential problem in the future. The US knows that, so does the Eu: that’s why their food production industries are usually off the table when foreign trade carve ups are underway. Our stupid government serves them up as the main course. Meanwhile at home farmers are told ‘to do more with less’, left unsupported against predatory monopolistic supermarkets with gigantic profits, and threatened with land purchase orders at below market rates by councils. As a result, farms are closing at record rates. Maybe you take the view that it doesn’t matter because farming is very small beer in GDP terms. But if farmland is built on, that’s it. It’s not like most other industries that can safely be off-shored, or swiftly revived at need. You tear out an orchard and it would take a decade or more to replace it. You stick a housing estate on a field and it will never be productive again. 60% of our food is domestically produced, and falling. It’s not clever

Yep well said

bombastix · 19/09/2025 09:00

@RoseAndGeranium - all I am pointing out is the negotiation tactic of the EU which is to place say, fishing rights, which is supports a relatively small part of the economy, and SPS, and youth mobility, all of which are pretty toxic areas for the UK post Brexit, and puts those up for a condition before discussing anything else. The EU sues us over sandeels.

Now, these are our nearest neighbours and if they were serious about building links with us they could come up with a far better package than that. Trump had turned up with something that is ij terms of cold hard investment. The EU is still talking about regulations.

You might be offended by this stark reality, but it’s not personal to you. I don’t have an axe to grind about EU standards. We could have sorted this all out when we left. We didn’t. If Keir Starmer achieves regulatory alignment with the EU on food, would you be happy?

RoseAndGeranium · 19/09/2025 23:51

I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I don't think any of this is personal to me, and I'm not particularly keen on trading with the EU specifically (although it would be useful if we could improve relations with them) or offended by the idea of trading with the US (big fan of the US generally, and since Trump is their elected representative it's perfectly normal and pragmatic to make nice with him). However, regardless of which nation we're trading with, I think the deals made should take our long term strategic interests into account as well as our immediate economic interests. Food security ought to be a key part of any country's long term strategy, so trade deals that undermine domestic food production are, in my opinion, not good trade deals. Whilst I take your point that the EU is a particularly difficult trading partner because some of its member nations especially get hung up on objectively quite petty issues, I stand by my own, which is that those member nations, and the bloc as a whole, are absolutely right to protect their agricultural and food production industries fiercely. Every nation with the slightest bit of foresight and instinct for self-preservation knows to do this. We should be more sensitive to it still given that we are an island. Yet it has become depressingly fashionable amongst a particular type of urban liberal (perhaps you are not one, I don't know) to behave as though there's something tragically parochial and myopic about wanting to protect British farming. The sophisticated thing to do in these circles is talk about how importing lamb from New Zealand has a lower carbon footprint than growing it on Welsh hillsides, and despite the fact that the UK is not by any standards, a reliably sunny place, farmland is best used for solar panels. Starmer and his government exemplify this way of thinking, and I absolutely loathe them for it.

mjf981 · 19/09/2025 23:58

I don't follow UK politics much as I no longer live there, but whenever I see Starmer and hear him speak, I think of the local high school maths teacher. Volunteers on weekends teaching kids how to bowl. He then goes for pizza after. Maybe visits his Mum every Sunday for tea and a natter. In bed by 9pm. That sort of thing.

He's just not really PM like...

bombastix · 20/09/2025 01:45

@RoseAndGeranium I don’t think there is anything myopic about food security, it’s simply how the UK achieves it. Regulatory alignment with with the EU is one way to build on our geographical isolation.

Post Brexit, you could argue that the UK was careless with food security in its trade deals and SPS (Conservative), and that domestic policy on taxation on farms (Labour) adds to the issues. But the point is you want a government with a sophisticated policy that benefits everyone in the UK. It is absolutely tiresome to see what is a fundamental issue cast as party politics. We all need to eat, but the UK has had a sclerotic attitude to food security which does not think about the long term issues. However, it is banal to me to paint this as an urban v country issue. The UK should not be a land bank for investment in the countryside. It should produce. But to declaim Trump’s offer is wrong. We are a now services driven economy primarily generating tax to run our public services and his offer reflects that reality. The UK will never produce goods in the way it once did; it is the worlds first developed economy.

The boring idealism of this party or x party is has generated politicians with a stunted client class. If Labour can accept Trump’s services offer but build a separate offer on SPS with the EU on dynamic alignment I will applaud it. It is almost the best of what Brexit could give.

Honish · 20/09/2025 10:59

RoseAndGeranium · 19/09/2025 23:51

I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I don't think any of this is personal to me, and I'm not particularly keen on trading with the EU specifically (although it would be useful if we could improve relations with them) or offended by the idea of trading with the US (big fan of the US generally, and since Trump is their elected representative it's perfectly normal and pragmatic to make nice with him). However, regardless of which nation we're trading with, I think the deals made should take our long term strategic interests into account as well as our immediate economic interests. Food security ought to be a key part of any country's long term strategy, so trade deals that undermine domestic food production are, in my opinion, not good trade deals. Whilst I take your point that the EU is a particularly difficult trading partner because some of its member nations especially get hung up on objectively quite petty issues, I stand by my own, which is that those member nations, and the bloc as a whole, are absolutely right to protect their agricultural and food production industries fiercely. Every nation with the slightest bit of foresight and instinct for self-preservation knows to do this. We should be more sensitive to it still given that we are an island. Yet it has become depressingly fashionable amongst a particular type of urban liberal (perhaps you are not one, I don't know) to behave as though there's something tragically parochial and myopic about wanting to protect British farming. The sophisticated thing to do in these circles is talk about how importing lamb from New Zealand has a lower carbon footprint than growing it on Welsh hillsides, and despite the fact that the UK is not by any standards, a reliably sunny place, farmland is best used for solar panels. Starmer and his government exemplify this way of thinking, and I absolutely loathe them for it.

Absolutely. Mumsnet is very urban liberal though, perhaps not quite so much as it once was.

twistyizzy · 20/09/2025 11:06

RoseAndGeranium · 19/09/2025 23:51

I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I don't think any of this is personal to me, and I'm not particularly keen on trading with the EU specifically (although it would be useful if we could improve relations with them) or offended by the idea of trading with the US (big fan of the US generally, and since Trump is their elected representative it's perfectly normal and pragmatic to make nice with him). However, regardless of which nation we're trading with, I think the deals made should take our long term strategic interests into account as well as our immediate economic interests. Food security ought to be a key part of any country's long term strategy, so trade deals that undermine domestic food production are, in my opinion, not good trade deals. Whilst I take your point that the EU is a particularly difficult trading partner because some of its member nations especially get hung up on objectively quite petty issues, I stand by my own, which is that those member nations, and the bloc as a whole, are absolutely right to protect their agricultural and food production industries fiercely. Every nation with the slightest bit of foresight and instinct for self-preservation knows to do this. We should be more sensitive to it still given that we are an island. Yet it has become depressingly fashionable amongst a particular type of urban liberal (perhaps you are not one, I don't know) to behave as though there's something tragically parochial and myopic about wanting to protect British farming. The sophisticated thing to do in these circles is talk about how importing lamb from New Zealand has a lower carbon footprint than growing it on Welsh hillsides, and despite the fact that the UK is not by any standards, a reliably sunny place, farmland is best used for solar panels. Starmer and his government exemplify this way of thinking, and I absolutely loathe them for it.

Well said 👏

RoseAndGeranium · 20/09/2025 16:43

bombastix · 20/09/2025 01:45

@RoseAndGeranium I don’t think there is anything myopic about food security, it’s simply how the UK achieves it. Regulatory alignment with with the EU is one way to build on our geographical isolation.

Post Brexit, you could argue that the UK was careless with food security in its trade deals and SPS (Conservative), and that domestic policy on taxation on farms (Labour) adds to the issues. But the point is you want a government with a sophisticated policy that benefits everyone in the UK. It is absolutely tiresome to see what is a fundamental issue cast as party politics. We all need to eat, but the UK has had a sclerotic attitude to food security which does not think about the long term issues. However, it is banal to me to paint this as an urban v country issue. The UK should not be a land bank for investment in the countryside. It should produce. But to declaim Trump’s offer is wrong. We are a now services driven economy primarily generating tax to run our public services and his offer reflects that reality. The UK will never produce goods in the way it once did; it is the worlds first developed economy.

The boring idealism of this party or x party is has generated politicians with a stunted client class. If Labour can accept Trump’s services offer but build a separate offer on SPS with the EU on dynamic alignment I will applaud it. It is almost the best of what Brexit could give.

Ah - to be clear, my frustration is with both major parties (and I very much doubt Reform would be any better). The Conservatives were careless and bungling in this area too, particularly in the asymmetrical regulation of imported and home grown food but also in their failure to curb the power of the supermarkets. So much policy innovation could also have happened post-Brexit to make farming more sustainable in both economic and environmental terms, and the opportunity was largely squandered. That said, there were some successes, including the SFI scheme. My particular quarrel with the present government is that it appears to have launched an all out attack on farming. It’s not just taxation (although the government’s flat refusal to consider any of the suggested to the removal of APR, even those options that have the endorsement of people like Dan Neidle, who cannot be accused of being a Tory, has been especially appalling) it is also, including but not limited to: the abrupt withdrawal of what remained of subsidies; the premature closure to applicants of environmental support/capital investment schemes (especially compared with the significant incentives offered to the solar companies that buy up farmland and cover it in limited life, non-recyclable, made in China at considerable carbon cost solar panels; and the upcoming bill to make it possible for councils to buy farmland (but not urban land) at significantly below market value. And they are also still engaging in the same practices or omissions I criticised in the Conservatives. James Rebanks, who is not at all a Tory or politically partisan, has been increasingly outspoken on just how bad this government has been for farming. What makes it worse is that Starmer gave that speech prior to the election saying that he understood the challenges faced by farming and the need to protect farming businesses because they face unique challenges, are irreplaceable in ways that most businesses are not, and also have unique non-monetary national value. That, plainly, was a cynical untruth. In criticising the current government on this issue I am not being childishly partisan, I am being rational.
To your other points. It is true that we will are very unlikely ever to grow enough food to be 100% self sustaining again. But we should preserve what food production capacity we still have. Closer links with the EU are a great idea, but they will not protect us in a real food crisis or altogether cushion us against major price shocks. You say yourself that the French are perfectly willing to kick up a stink about fishing rights even at the expense of deepening military cooperation and even at a time when the Russian invasion of Ukraine means that European will to improve military capacity and interdependence has never been greater. Do you really think, then, that aligning on food safety law and trade rules with the EU is going to offer significant help if global competition for food intensifies to critical levels? Because honestly, I don't. Furthermore, given that our geographical positioning and island status is likely to cushion us to a considerable extent from the effects of climate change, the UK is, in the long term, likely to rise in importance as a potential food growing location rather than fall in importance. So no, our economy is not primarily agrarian, but that is not a good reason to adopt a suite of policies that appears designed to run down food production and set back efforts to improve biodiversity and environmental sustainability at the same time.
And yes, it is an urban-rural question in the sense that those who only have experience of urban life, who regularly forget that food does in fact come from fields and orchards and dead animals and not just from Tesco, and who think mostly in terms normal business economics understandably do not have a strong understanding of the realities of farming. I see it all the time in debates like this: 'If a farm is worth £3m then why does it only have profits of £25-30k pa and require two people to work it full time?'. (I assume that's what you mean by your slightly gnomic remarks that 'The UK should not be a land bank for investment in the countryside. It should produce.') That is a perfectly normal question for someone whose day to day experience is that a business should only invest in properties (of whatever sort) that will provide a good return, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when applied to agricultural land and farming, because (a) the value of agricultural land is grossly inflated by Tom, who made his money in finance and now wants 3 acres to walk the dog and keep a pony for his daughter Cressida, and doesn't mind paying £30k per acre for land that realistically is only good for growing pasture and cannot be expected to have an agricultural yield of more than round £100-150 pa; and (b) the price of food in this country is kept artificially low by the supermarkets and government pressure, which has been made sustainable in the past by subsidies, tax relief such as APR, and, frankly, the goodwill and bloody minded determination of farmers the country over to keep their land and their businesses afloat, in spite of the avalanche of disrespect, misunderstanding, and adverse legislation directed at them by successive governments.

twistyizzy · 20/09/2025 16:46

Well here are the facts: a record 6,365 agriculture, forestry, and fishing businesses closed in the past year, the highest number since quarterly data was first collected in 2017, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

Once farmland has gone, it's gone forever. This is state created destruction of a sector and food security

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/record-farm-closures-amid-iht-reforms-and-rising-costs

Record farm closures amid IHT reforms and rising costs - Farmers Weekly

A record 6,365 agriculture, forestry, and fishing businesses closed in the past year, the highest number since quarterly data was first collected in 2017,

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/record-farm-closures-amid-iht-reforms-and-rising-costs

EasternStandard · 20/09/2025 17:48

twistyizzy · 20/09/2025 16:46

Well here are the facts: a record 6,365 agriculture, forestry, and fishing businesses closed in the past year, the highest number since quarterly data was first collected in 2017, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

Once farmland has gone, it's gone forever. This is state created destruction of a sector and food security

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/record-farm-closures-amid-iht-reforms-and-rising-costs

In the past year? Labour policy then.

bombastix · 20/09/2025 18:16

RoseAndGeranium · 20/09/2025 16:43

Ah - to be clear, my frustration is with both major parties (and I very much doubt Reform would be any better). The Conservatives were careless and bungling in this area too, particularly in the asymmetrical regulation of imported and home grown food but also in their failure to curb the power of the supermarkets. So much policy innovation could also have happened post-Brexit to make farming more sustainable in both economic and environmental terms, and the opportunity was largely squandered. That said, there were some successes, including the SFI scheme. My particular quarrel with the present government is that it appears to have launched an all out attack on farming. It’s not just taxation (although the government’s flat refusal to consider any of the suggested to the removal of APR, even those options that have the endorsement of people like Dan Neidle, who cannot be accused of being a Tory, has been especially appalling) it is also, including but not limited to: the abrupt withdrawal of what remained of subsidies; the premature closure to applicants of environmental support/capital investment schemes (especially compared with the significant incentives offered to the solar companies that buy up farmland and cover it in limited life, non-recyclable, made in China at considerable carbon cost solar panels; and the upcoming bill to make it possible for councils to buy farmland (but not urban land) at significantly below market value. And they are also still engaging in the same practices or omissions I criticised in the Conservatives. James Rebanks, who is not at all a Tory or politically partisan, has been increasingly outspoken on just how bad this government has been for farming. What makes it worse is that Starmer gave that speech prior to the election saying that he understood the challenges faced by farming and the need to protect farming businesses because they face unique challenges, are irreplaceable in ways that most businesses are not, and also have unique non-monetary national value. That, plainly, was a cynical untruth. In criticising the current government on this issue I am not being childishly partisan, I am being rational.
To your other points. It is true that we will are very unlikely ever to grow enough food to be 100% self sustaining again. But we should preserve what food production capacity we still have. Closer links with the EU are a great idea, but they will not protect us in a real food crisis or altogether cushion us against major price shocks. You say yourself that the French are perfectly willing to kick up a stink about fishing rights even at the expense of deepening military cooperation and even at a time when the Russian invasion of Ukraine means that European will to improve military capacity and interdependence has never been greater. Do you really think, then, that aligning on food safety law and trade rules with the EU is going to offer significant help if global competition for food intensifies to critical levels? Because honestly, I don't. Furthermore, given that our geographical positioning and island status is likely to cushion us to a considerable extent from the effects of climate change, the UK is, in the long term, likely to rise in importance as a potential food growing location rather than fall in importance. So no, our economy is not primarily agrarian, but that is not a good reason to adopt a suite of policies that appears designed to run down food production and set back efforts to improve biodiversity and environmental sustainability at the same time.
And yes, it is an urban-rural question in the sense that those who only have experience of urban life, who regularly forget that food does in fact come from fields and orchards and dead animals and not just from Tesco, and who think mostly in terms normal business economics understandably do not have a strong understanding of the realities of farming. I see it all the time in debates like this: 'If a farm is worth £3m then why does it only have profits of £25-30k pa and require two people to work it full time?'. (I assume that's what you mean by your slightly gnomic remarks that 'The UK should not be a land bank for investment in the countryside. It should produce.') That is a perfectly normal question for someone whose day to day experience is that a business should only invest in properties (of whatever sort) that will provide a good return, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when applied to agricultural land and farming, because (a) the value of agricultural land is grossly inflated by Tom, who made his money in finance and now wants 3 acres to walk the dog and keep a pony for his daughter Cressida, and doesn't mind paying £30k per acre for land that realistically is only good for growing pasture and cannot be expected to have an agricultural yield of more than round £100-150 pa; and (b) the price of food in this country is kept artificially low by the supermarkets and government pressure, which has been made sustainable in the past by subsidies, tax relief such as APR, and, frankly, the goodwill and bloody minded determination of farmers the country over to keep their land and their businesses afloat, in spite of the avalanche of disrespect, misunderstanding, and adverse legislation directed at them by successive governments.

I take your points about successive government policy; but no, I don’t believe an EU alignment deal would mean food security obtained. We haven’t been self sufficient for maybe a hundred years? I am really from the perspective of trade; how do we get investment in the UK, how do we export to markets for our goods. Set certain standards on health, animal welfare, connected to imports from other countries would probably help British farmers.

I don’t know what you do about Tom from Finance. It is a free economy isn’t it? If he wants to buy his acreage and a llama farm on it he can. You can’t stop him spending his money as he sees fit, but Tom is also the person who probably gentrified an area of a city previously considered to be scummy, but now is priced out to all but his kind.

To it’s a matter town versus country is maybe to miss that Tom from Finance, and his particular firepower, which isn’t taxed very much, is a problem across the UK. He is a tiny elite along with his multinational employers who is well favoured by most governments of any kind. He will still get a good deal under Reform too. His best friend is the lobbyist for the supermarkets and his wife is probably working a PR firm.

The pressures you cite like governments and supermarkets wanting cheap food aren’t going away. The UK consumer doesn’t like to pay what it thinks is too much. I’m sure you know that btw but the point is who is there in power close to farmers to represent them? Because from what you’ve noted, it’s clear that farmers don’t have the influence you think they should.